level was weapons. He would never forget for the purpose of foreign war, and our what he saw in the Cuban Cam- falling into that error was largely the repaign in this regard. Magnificent sult of the war in South Africa. The Volunteers were sent out, Volunteers as hon. Member for the Abercromby Divigood as any we could find in this country. sion seemed to resent the idea that the It was thought wise that they should be lessons of the South African War did not armed with inferior and inefficient in all respects settle this problem, but weapons. What was the result? These men he did not think there was much comwho from the start found that they were parison between what took place in South outranged, and that they had inferior Africa and what would take place weapons, immediately lost their morale. if fighting picked European troops If we were to have these untrained troops armed with the latest weapons. Those at all, it was absolutely necessary that troops would penetrate and annihiliate they should have first class weapons, our ametur line of defence. If this otherwise they would go into the fight Home Army was to be relied upon to beaten from the start. The right repel an invasion the least the right hon. Gentleman further assumed that hon. Gentleman could do was to this Home Army would not not have make it an efficient force, even to fight until it had been embodied if it a small one. Let him for six months. He personally did not up the voluntary forces believe that it was possible to produce rather than level them down, and let efficient artillery e en in that time, but, him give them efficient artillery. He even so, how could the right hon. Gentle- would be interested to see whether the man count on this Home Army enjoying right hon. Gentleman could produce expert a long period of training before it was artillery opinion to support his suggestion called upon to fight. Could he persuade to give this Army second-class artillery. the enemy to wait; to agree to a sort He could not do so. It would be wiser of close time for the embryo British therefore to increase the regular artillery Army whilst in the chrysalis s age? and to have a certain portion in reserve, [An HON. MEMBER: What about the if necessary for the purposes of this Navy?] An hon. Member said, Home Army. There was another point "What about the Navy?" He only on which the scheme was bound to break said that if this Army had to fight, down, and that was the total absence if the enemy did attack, he would of a sufficient quantity of trained strike as unexpec edly and as swiftly officers, without which no army, not even as possible. If such a thing as a raid the war hardened Japanese army, could was possible it would surely take place in keep the field as a fighting machine. The the early stages of the war before our right hon. Gentleman said he was imNavy had been able to assert its over- pressed with the need for more officers, yet whelming superiority and give us the he had only provided for the Home Army command of the seas. He was perhaps 206 officers, or one for every 1,500 men, more pessimistic than the hon. Member and he was not even going to allow for the Abercromby Division, but he Regular adjutants for the various units. believed even if this Home Army did en- Apparently the Spectator Company was joy this period of six months unmolested supposed to afford some idea of what could for the purpose of its training, and if it be done, but it must be remembered the sprang from the soil as strong and as result of that experiment was almost numerous as it did from the right hon. entirely due to the excep ional zeal and Gentleman's dream, still it would be de- ability of Colonel Pollock and his nonficient in morale, training and efficiency. commissioned officers. But in that It would have to face war of the case there was one trained officer most bloody description if it had to to 100 men, whilst the right hon. fight at all, and yet it was to be Gentleman only proposed to have prepared for this as light heartedly one officer for 1,500 men. If they as if it were going for a picnic. He were going to train this Home Army as thought we were apt to form rather an the Spectator Company was trained they exaggerated opinion of the reliability of would require 3,000 Colonel Pollocks, and an improvised and hastily organised force where were they going to find them? Whilst, in conclusion, noone would be more over-estimate, and although he conpleased to see the right hon. Gentleman's gratulated the right hon. Gentleman scheme work than himself; while he upon cutting down the over-estimates and wished it every success; and while they upon having compelled his subordinates were all animated with the sole desire to to unload their unnecessary cargoes, improve the Forces, there seemed to him yet after all that was not the manner in to be two vital defects, the lack of com- which it was hoped the reduction of petent officers and the lack of tolerably military expenditure would be effected. efficient artillery. The whole scheme was It appeared that of this £2,000,000 bound to fail unless the right hon. Gentle- only £600,000 was due to a reduction man could devise some thorough-going of the establishment. He found that remedy, and a thorough-going remedy was bound to be costly. Unless, however, these defects were remedied the whole of this Home Army which the right hon. Gentleman had described with such glowing enthusiasm and which looked so well on paper would collapse on the first shock of war like a child's house of cards. eight battalions had been abolished, four in South Africa, two in Malta, one in Gibraltar, and one in Ceylon. This was no doubt effected in communication with the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and he thought the reductions were right, but he found there was still a large force in our Colonies, especially in South Africa, and he would like to know whether the right hon. Gentleman *SIR H. COTTON (Nottingham, E.) said was prepared to give the Committee any he desired to make some observations promise or pledge that he would consider from a somewhat different point of view whether the garrison in South Africa from those which had just been addressed could not be further reduced. The force to the Committee. He desired to in South Africa was well over 16,000 at address himself to the Estimates and not the present moment, and before the to the right hon. Gentleman's scheme Boer War it was only 3,000. It was now for reforming the Army. As to the proposed to retain permanently in South number of men, he felt some disappoint- Africa a very large establishment of ment that a larger reduction had not been Regular troops, but he failed to see the made during the present year. The right reason for their retention. If it was hon. Gentleman must have been aware intended to be a sort of check on the that at the time of the general election Boers who had been so lately fighting and for some time prior to it there was no against us, and with regard to whom subject that attracted so much attention some apprehension might be felt, he or excited more enthusiasm than the could understand it. But there was no promise that a Liberal Government feeling of that kind. On the contrary it would effect large reductions in naval and was felt that friend and foe were now military expenditure. This was especially welded in one, and that there was no the case with respect to the Army. He was internal danger from the Boer nation, to glad to find there was a reduction on whom we had actually conceded rethis Vote of £2,000,000 in round numbers, sponsible Government which had rebut that was a very much smaller re- sulted in a Boer administration being duction than the country expected established. country expected established. In such circumstances it of the present Government. He found seemed wholly unnecessary to maintain also that that reduction, according in the country the number of troops to to the very candid admission of the which he had referred. The point of ight hon. Gentleman himself, was due to the argument, as far as the Estimanipulating what might be called the mates were concerned, was that if we fringe of the question. It was mainly reduced the number of troops abroad due to the custom which prevailed in the we must make a corresponding repermanent offices. There was nothing duction at home. That was due to the in this peculiar to the War Office. linked battalion system condemned by Those who like himself had been asso- many, but with which he sympathised ciated all their lives with the constitu- because it enabled reductions to be made tion of Government offices would by bringing pressure, which was otherknow that it was their custom to wise non-existent, on the Government Mr. Arthur Lee. at home. This argument applied also were reduced to 63,000, and it was found to India, where we had fifty two that that number was ample for all the battalions of infantry. He heard the purposes of defence. When there was no right hon. Gentleman say that he anxiety and when we could look at a had not heard from his right hon. perfectly serene sky on our frontiers the friend the Secretary of State for India British force in India was increased to that he proposed to ask him to withdraw 79,000. That demanded some explanaany of the fifty-two battalions which he tion and consideration at the hands of had in India, and which he had had on the Government. But the right hon. that scale ever since the time of the Gentleman said he was not responsible for Mutiny. He (Sir H. Cotton) did not the British troops in India. He (Sir H. know from that communication whether Cotton) did not admit that. They had. the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of heard of this sort of thing before. The taxState for War had consulted the Secretary payers were treated as a kind of football of State for India or not, but he between the Secretary of State for India ventured to think that in so important a and the right hon. Gentleman, while the matter as this, a matter affecting the one Minister threw himself on the other reduction and economy of military for protection. There had been Viceroys expenditure, it was most desirable in India who had done much in past that there should have been a con- years to reduce the British forces in that ference between the two responsible country. Secretaries of State with a view to effecting economy if possible. As to the statement that fifty-two battalions had existed in India from the time of the Mutiny, the statement had no foundation whatever. He did not know what authority the right hon. Gentleman had for making the statement, but as matter of fact there was a larger force now in India than there had ever been since the Mutiny. a' THE CHAIRMAN pointed out that this Vote excluded the Indian forces, and therefore the hon. Gentleman was out of order in discussing Indian affairs. ensue. *SIR H. COTTON said he was not interested in discussing Indian affairs except to show that the reduction of our military force in India would reduce the force in this country; that a corresponding reduction in this country must There had never been, since the Mutiny, so large a military force in India as at the present time. There were now some 79,000 British troops in the country; five years ago there were only 63,000. That was during the war. The troops were sent to South Africa from India at that time. During that war India might have been said to have been in an anxious condition in regard to foreign countries. If ever there was danger to India from invasion it was at that time, when Britain was weak and her enemies were strong. Then the British forces VOL. CLXX. [FOURTH SERIES.] THE CHAIRMAN said the hon. Gentleman appeared to be discussing the Indian establishment, he could not do that on this Vote. He would be in order in arguing that if the force in India was reduced, the force here would be reduced, but he was not in order in discussing the Indian Force in detail. *SIR H. COTTON said he was trying Gentlemen got out of the argument by to bring out the fact that these right hon. throwing themselves on one ano her for protection. But there had been Viceroys who did reduce the troops in India. Lord Lawrence reduced the British force in that country by 7,000, and later on Lord Ripon reduced the establishment to 58,000 as against the 79,000 at the present time. So far from this being the number of troops retained in India since the Mutiny, he could well remember the day when there were only 55,000. THE CHAIRMAN again called the hon. Member to order, and said he must not discuss the question in this manner. *SIR H. COTTON said he would bow to the ruling of the Chairman, but he was bound to point out that the strength of the British Army in India was closely connected with the strength of the British Army here in this country, and that unless the Secretary of State for D War would consider this case in communication with the Secretary of State for India he would never be able to effect the reductions desired by the mass of the electors, who returned to Parliament Gentlemen like himself as well as right hon. Gentlemen who sat on the Treasury Bench. was that the right hon. Gentleman claimed, he had no doubt with perfect accuracy, that in this matter he represented not only his own mind, but the mind of the best representatives of the Army associated with him in the Army Council. That, of course, to him made a very considerable difference. But he wondered in what way the proposition COLONEL KENYON-SLANEY (Shrop- had been put to the Army advisers. shire, Newport) said that he would Had it been in this way-"Tell me make no reference to the speech they had how the Army can be made absolutely just listened to except to say that when efficient, and we will see what can be the hon. Gentleman found fault with the done? Or was it in this way-retention of the garrisons in South"You can only have so much money, Africa, and said that before the war there and your efficiency must be made to was only a garrison of 3,000 there, some correspond with the expenditure?" Of Members believed that had there been a course, there was a difference where the larger garrison then, there might have military advisers had to consider effibeen no war. With regard to the Indian ciency first and economy afterwards, comparisons which the hon. Gentleman or where they had to consider economy had made, he could only say that so long as first, and efficiency was to be made to there were persons agitating against this fit in with the economy. He traced country it would not be wise to make throughout the whole scheme the unany reduction of our forces there. Com- fortunate necessity of the Governmen 's ing now to the subject previously under having to carry out some of the pledges discussion, which was of supreme im- which were given at the last general elecportance to the country, he desired to tion. With regard to the field force, under say that the speech of the right hon. this scheme, personally and individually Gentleman and the action he had taken he objected to its reduction by over was a great contribution to the con- 16,000 men. In view of the casualties sideration of the greatest of our national sustained in modern battles the reducproblems. He would confine his ob- tion of our forces by 16,000 men was servations to trying to obtain information not a very good preliminary step to from the right hon. Gentleman on various getting an efficient Army. He thought points of his scheme which he did not the reduction was a mistake, and he was quite understand, and to point out surprised that the Army authorities those spots in it that it was desir- should have given their consent to it, able to remove before going further. unless they were driven by necessity to The hon. Member for the Abercromby confine this scheme within certain ecoDivision appeared to be delighted that nomical limits. The composition of the the Army was so small, but regretted that field force was to be 160,000 men, and it further reductions had not been made. was to depend for its efficiency, as far as How small the hon. Gentleman would he could make out, on the reinforcement like it to be, he did not know. The of 75,000 of the special contingent. He hon. Gentleman hoped to get further wanted to know whether what was called reductions next year. They might go the special contingent was part of the so far that it would not be worth field force or part of the territorial force. while to have an Army at all. He could not help thinking that the speech of the hon. Member for the Abercromby Division must have been somewhat unpleasant hearing for the right hon. Gentleman in charge of this great question. One point which had struck him, and which made him a little bit inclined to differ from some of those who had spoken on his own side of the House, Sir H. Cotton. For M MR. HALDANE said it would form part of the field force, to which it belonged. The special contingent would include not only the new battalions, but also highly skilled troops drawn from the territorial force to be supernumerary on the mobilisation of the field force. On the other part of the Question put new by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, he would like to say that he had never put upon the Army Council that they desired to reduce their battalions, except that it was a part of the general policy of the country. He also wished to say that he would not put upon the Army Council that they represented the most perfect thing imaginable. He knew nothing of what views they might have as to compulsory service, and he was not sure that they would not have liked to draft the Militia. But those things were withheld. What he said was: Granted these things, then the duty of the Army Council was to find the most perfect way. COLONEL KENYON-SLANEY said this reply afforded an excellent instance of the very object he had in view, because he had elicited the confessions which the right hon. Gentleman had now made. With regard to the field force, he personally had seen little to object to in the general idea that was put forward concerning it, either as to its administration or as to the way in which it was to be commanded and divided. With regard to the territorial force, there seemed to be a dislike among some hon. Members about coming under the command of Regular officers, of coming under the military thumb. But how were they going to deal with the territorial force unless it was under the military thumb, unless it was under the command of a supreme military thumb? If there was a constant disinclination among Militia, Volunteers and Yeomanry to be commanded by Regular soldiers, then the right hon. Gentleman's scheme collapsed at once. Now, they were to have this third battalion, which formed an important part of the scheme. He was immediately struck by the doubt whether there was room at the headquarters depots if third battalions had to be housed in them. He could not understand what this special contingent of 75,000 men meant, or why they should depend for their training on the third battalion, with its nucleus. Why should they not be trained in the territorial headquarters of the regiment by the staff of the Regular regiment? He could not quite follow why that should not be. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to have based most of his hopes on the innate patriotism He of the people, of the classes from which. this territorial force was to be recruited. He based his hopes on their willingness to serve under the conditions which he laid down. It was of no use to him or his scheme if the Volunteers accepted this system and the Yeomanry declined it. It was of no use to his scheme if the Militia accepted it and the Volunteers and Yeomanry declined it. It was of no use to his scheme if the Yeomanry alone declined. Therefore, it was necessary for the completion of his scheme that they should all be willing to serve and do some fighting, and that he should have from the country at large a sufficient response to find at least 300,000 men. would be unwilling to throw any doubt on the patriotic willingness of the people to bear their share of defending the honour of the country; but he did think it was a little dangerous, and he could conceive that it might mean the wrecking and ruining of the Imperial policy, if those who organised that policy depended upon a responsive movement which migh not be made. If the men to be enlisted said "No," then the whole of that policy came to the ground, and they surrendered the country which they might have to defend. Of course it could not be conceived that a position of that sort was consonant with real patriotism, or with anything but a low and unworthy view of the necessities of the country or the Empire. Le hem suppose the field force had gone abroad, and the territorial force was mobilised for six months' training. The right hon. Gentleman knew that at that particular time intense strain was laid on all the firms and great establishments which had to manfacture war material. He would give an instance of what he meant. He believed there existed a battalion of Volunteers a the Elswick Works. He would suppose that they were working day and night to turn out work which was absolutely necessary for a war. If the right hon. Gentleman said to them, "You must cease work and come out for six months' training" they would put a stop to the work. If he did not call them out, there would be a hole in his military arrangements. How was that difficulty going to be met? He was somewhat puzzled as to the relations of the L |