seen. received from the companies themselves were perfectly appalling. No one dreamed of defending them. The directors of the companies did not defend them, nor did the managers, some of whom he had They simply said they regretted them, and that they wished they could get out of them. Here was one of the returns for November. On Friday a fireman at Leeds, on the Midland Railway, worked fourteen hours and fortyfive minutes. The very next day, without any interval, he worked twenty hours. That was something which no railway company ought to tolerate on its system. It was a danger to the travelling public, it was gross oppression, it was the worst form of slavery. There were several cases of that kind where men worked on consecutive days thirteen or fourteen hours, and that for about five days in the week, and human nature could not stand it. The excuse given by the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway was that their sidings were choked, every wagon being full and every train occupied, and, as far as that company was concerned, there had never been anything in the history of the company to equal it. He hoped that would be noted by the advocates of tariff reform. They told him they had been so busy with the export trade in coal that they could not find men, that engine drivers could not be made under six years, and that they had brought men from Ireland to help them. MR. LLOYD-GEORGE said he was afraid his hon. friend's advocacy had rather run away with him. On the contrary, there was any amount of evidence that long hours had nothing to do with them. The hours of labour were not so excessive in regard to express trains, or cases of that kind. The complaint as to excessive hours was in regard to enginemen and firemen on goods trains, and so far there was no evidence that serious accidents to goods trains could be traced to excessive hours. His hon. friend had asked him what could be done with a view to finding a remedy. He would say frankly that during the past year he had made a really honest effort to apply the means within his power. He felt that the railway companies should have a full and free opportunity of working the Act without any extra pressure being brought to bear upon them. He wanted to give them that opportunity by calling their attention to all these cases which had occurred in order to see whether they were prepared SIR F. BANBURY: I did not say voluntarily to cope with the situation. He engine drivers. Mr. Lloyd-George. did not think they could complain that he had been unfair. There had not been a single case to which he had called their attention which anyone would not have been compelled to admit. He would like to say in that respect that cases were brought before him by the hon. Member for Derbyshire and the hon. Member for Newcastle which he did not think, in the main, the companies had been able to dispose of, and he regretted to say that he did not think that they had really coped with the difficulty in the way that they ought to have done. He was told that although there might have been a shortage of drivers, the companies could have promoted men from the next rank, and filled the vacancies which were made in that next rank; they could have promoted men from the rank next beneath it, and by that means they could have dealt with emergencies. It was very much a question of the wages they were prepared to pay. The forty or fifty engine drivers who came from Ireland to this country was an illustration of that point. The moment they came over they found better wages in other trades and they left the railway company. So it was very largely a question of wages. When they found in Lancashire and Yorkshire high wages being given, men were tempted, of course, to go to those industries where such wages were to be obtained; the railway companies were left unless they were prepared to pay adequate wages to the men who came to them. In every other trade or business, when there was a great boom, and there was considera ble pressure, wages ment of the hon. Member for Stockport. He did not think the time was ripe for legislation fixing the hours of labour. He thought that upon the whole the powers given by the two Acts were adequate to cope with the difficulty. At any rate the Department would make an effort to exhaust every power given to it by the Act of 1893. He proposed to adopt the suggestion of the hon. Member for Derby by demanding Returns for special districts. If necessary there would be local inspection and inquiry in order to search down to the very bottom of the facts of the case. When the power under the existing Acts was exhausted, it would be time enough to ask the House of Commons for fresh powers. At the present moment he was not prepared to recommend the introduction of fresh legislation to fix definitely the hours of labour in the railway industry. They ought to proceed on the lines on which they had more or less proceeded up to the present, and, accepting the words of the Motion, apply the existing Acts still more vigorously. It was complained that if the companies were penalised by legislation, capital would be frightened. But if these complaints against the railway companies eventually materialised in legislation, the companies would have only themselves to blame. It was not a case here and there; the cases were numerous. He had a book full of them from one particular district. If those cases continued, and there was no real effort on the part of the railway directors to remedy them, the directors He did not think the railway only would be to blame if the public companies tried to meet emergencies by insisted that the matter should be set doing the same thing in order to induce right by legislation. The same remark men to enter their employment. With applied to railway charges and rates. regard to what he could do, all he could There was very grave and general promise at the present moment was discontent amongst the trading comthis. He could not accept the Amend-munity, and he would appeal to railVOL. CLXX. [FOURTH SERIES.] rose. 2 I whose stock during the last year had not gone down? He would like an answer to that. MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: That is owing to the dearness of money. way directors that if they wished to avoid drastic legislation with regard to granting facilities, with regard to owners' risk, and with regard to the hours of labour of their workmen, their only way to do so was by undertaking to remedy those grievances themselves. No one could do it more effectively than they could, because they had the whole of the facts in their charge. It was very largely a question of management, and he left the railway directors to undertake this business before another year came round and they had again to face a similar Motion. COLONEL LOCKWOOD said he would not attempt to argue the point. His object was to refer to the accusation made by the hon. Member for Derby against the London and North Western Company. It was very unlikely that he had made it without evidence, but he hoped the hon. Gentleman would communicate with him and give him an opportunity of replying. COLONEL LOCKWOOD (Essex, Epping) said the right hon. Gentleman. had referred to the extraordinary prosperity of the Erglish railway companies at the present time, but would he tell The Question put. House divided:--Ayes, 205; them of any single railway company Noes. 50. (Division List No. 38.) Abraham, William (Rhondda) Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Beauchamp, E. Benn, W.(T'w'r Hamlets,S.Geo. Bethell, Sir J.H.(Essex, Romf'rd Brace, William Bramsdon, T. A. Branch, James Brigg, John Bright, J. A, Mr. Lloyd-George. Edwards, Frank (Radnor) Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight | Findlay, Alexander Clarke, C. Goddard Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.) Cremer, William Randal Fuller, John Michael F. Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon.,S.) Jackson, R. S. Johnson, John (Gateshead) Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Lamont, Norman Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington Lever, A.Levy (Essex, Harwich Levy, Maurice Lewis, John Herbert Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David Macdonald, J.M. (Falkirk B'ghs) M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) M'Micking, Major B. Maddison, Frederick Mallet, Charles E. Manfield, Harry (Northants) Marks, G. Croydon (Launcest'n Massie, J. Menzies, Walter Micklem, Nathianiel Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro' | Waterlow, D. S. Renton, Major Leslie Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Roe, Sir Thomas Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) Sherwell, Arthur James Starkey, John R. Weir, James Galloway White, Luke (York, E.R.) Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) Wills, Arthur Walters Wilson, Hn. C. H. W. (Hull, W. Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) Wilson, P W. (St. Pancras, S.) Winfrey, R. Wodehouse, Lord Wood, T. M'Kinnon. TELLERS FOR THE AYES,-Mr. Fenwick and Mr. Bell. compelled to be on duty during excessive hours and being allowed but short intervals of rest, and urges upon the Government the necessity of applying Resolved, "That this House disapproves of engine drivers, firemen, guards, and other classes of railway employees being more vigorously The Railway Regula tion (Hours of Labour) Act, 1893, and, if this is inefficient, to prepare an Amendment to the Act." SUPPLY, [26TH FEBRUARY] REPORT. Postponed Proceeding on Amendment to Second Resolution reported from the Committee of Supply. CLASS VII. 2. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceed ing £10,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907, for the Salaries and other Expenses of Temporary Commissions, Committees, and Special Inquiries." Which Amendment was given by the Prime Minister that if they did not divide the House on the Motion that the Speaker leave the chair, they would have another opportunity of discussing Vote A and Vote 1 of the Navy Estimates. If the rule was suspended for that purpose he had no objection whatever, but if it was to be suspended to enable the Report of Vote A and Vote 1 of the Army Estimates to be taken in addition, he did not think that would be fair to the House. After all, this was a session of economy and efficiency, and he would like some pledge that the rule would not be suspended for any other purpose than a fair and full discussion of the Navy Estimates tomorrow. THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRE TARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. GEORGE “To leave out £10,000,' and insert £9,000." WHITELEY), said the right hon. Gentle |