system. He thought the principle laid expeditionary force than we had ever had before. He did not say that that would be wise, because he thought it was still too big, but as long as we adhered to the Cardwell system we should have to keep a large number of men in this country, and while we had them here we might just as well organise them to go oversea. We had now arrived at a kind of Cowper-Templeism in the Army system. When they had got something in place of the present system, many of them would press that we should not keep so large an expeditionary force, on the ground that, whatever the dangers of reductions, the cogent arguments as to national credit advanced by the right hon. Gentleman opposite more than outweighed the necessities of spending so large a sum of money on the expeditionary force. He agreed with the Member for Dover that there were in divisions. But although the dividangers in these seventy-four battalions. sional organisation might not be perfect If they were to make a complete short service Army, such as the right hon. the Auxiliary forces. they must have all three arms in Gentleman the Member for Croydon The right hon. proposed, he agreed it would be a false Gentleman the Member for Dover had step, but he did not understand the complained of the proposition to form proposals of the Secretary of State for Volunteer artillery. Surely he had not War to amount to that. If the short forgotten that our experience in the service Army was allowed to grow it recent war was that the power of shooting would undoubtedly greatly increase the well with guns was not confined to difficulty of finding employment for Regular arms. This fact had been trade. the old soldier, and it would take demonstrated in every war in which troops formed on a national basis had been engaged against a Regular Army. In artillery, above all things, the most amazing skill and courage had been developed by what he might call a national Army. It was well-known served the that the gunners who one man two functions. No man should | But in connection with such matters as have two functions at the same time; the provision of rifle ranges, and looking it only caused confusion both in peace after what might be called the eleemosyand war. He hoped the Secretary nary duties of the payment of separation of State for War would stick to the allowances, the co-ordination of the divisional organisation, and not give any various funds, and the finding of emman two functions. He thought there ployment for Regular soldiers, he thought should also be a separate department that good would be done. He was doubtat the War Office to deal with the ful of the wisdom of making the Lordterritorial Army. The Norfolk Commis- Lieutenant ex officio the head of the sion nnanimously recommended i, and county association. If the Lord-Lieutenyet no hing was done. It was heart- ant was suitable he would be always breaking for those in command of the elected, but if he was not suitable it was Auxiliary Forces to have to go through not desirable that he should take the the interminable delays caused by the position ex officio. That was a detail interference of the War Office, who could which had better be discussed when the not possibly know anything whatever Bill was before the House. One of the about the special needs of the Auxiliary main objections urged by the right hon. Forces. They were apt to be very much Gentleman the Member for Croydon misled by the advice of experts with against the Secretary of State for War's regard to the enlistment and training, and scheme was, that these men of the certainly in regard to the clothing of the Territorial Army were not liable for Volunteers. The soldier back from India, service abroad. That was precisely however distinguished, was not an ex- why he and his friends supported the pert in these matters. He was an proposal. They believed that it was amateur; he knew nothing of them. an added check on the power of the He would give one instance. The desire Executive when engaged in a war in regard to the Regular soldiers was to which it could not finish. Nothing was have as few married men as possible in more dangerous than to give the War the ranks of the Army, but the desire Office power to commence a war just of everyone interested in the Auxiliary because there was a large expeditionary Forces was to have as many married men force with considerable powers of exas possible in the territorial force. Ex- pansion behind it. It was far safer that perience showed that in the South African with a limited force they should have War the married man was as a rule more a patriotic, well armed, and well drilled courageous than the unmarried man. body on the voluntary principle, who He said that without suggesting any were themselves the judges as to reason in the least, and without any whether they would prosecute the war personal reference to his right hon. friend. or not. That was a profound principle It was admitted also by the Japanese not only of the Liberal Party but of the generals that they found the they found the same whole English nation, for which they had remarkable fact in the recent war. The fought for the last 300 years. They could only reason why the military chiefs not expect any soldier at the War Office, wanted to get rid of married men was that who desired to have before him a plain it was inconvenient to house the men picture showing the number of men who in India, but that reason entirely disap- could be called upon, to accept that view. peared when they were dealing with a Another objection was that, after territorial force. Only a small percentage this territorial force had been trained of non-commissioned officers and none of for a week or a fortnight they would the rank and file would receive separa- be no good. Somebody had said tion allowances when the territorial that any other troops would go through force was called upon. As to the for- them like a knife through butter. mation of county associations, he believed right hon. Gentleman opposite had said these bodies could do real good with that they would be putting their money the limited functions now assigned to on the wrong horse, because in ninetythem. He did not think it would have nine cases out of 100 they would be perbeen wise to give them sole control of fectly useless. Was that true? the Volunteers, Militia, and Yeomanry. borne out by history or facts? The Was it *MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER (Croydon), The hon. and gallant Member has misrepresented me. I said that history showed that in ninety-nine cases out of 100 this force would be unavailable, because we fought abroad. I was not at that time talking of the quality of the force in any way. MAJOR SEELY: What was the right hon. Gentleman speaking about? Surely he could not be referring to the last war. Were they not available in the last war? Is that what he means? MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER : I said that in ninety-nine case out of 100 this force was not available except as Volunteers, and that I did not think it was a wise thing to organise the whole force for a purpose for which you did not intend to employ it. MAJOR SEELY said the right hon. Gentleman had modified the statement somewhat. On the Ministerial side they were determined to adhere to the principle that a great part of the force would exercise its free will-however irritating that might be to gentlemen at the War Office as to whether they would go or not. If the right hon. Gentleman said they would not go in a just cause he said what was not the fact. A third of the Volunteer force volunteered to go to South Africa, although it had to be borne in mind that the War Office told them that only 10,000 would be allowed to go. They would always be willing to go in a just war. Were they a good force? Somebody had said that the state of the Volunteers was deplorable. He dissented from that view. Some of the Volunteers were magnificent material. Some of them were as good as the men in any of the Armies of the Continent. He instanced the 1st battalion of the Hampshire Regiment. There they had raised on the voluntary principle a double battalion with its own headquarters, drill halls, and rifle ranges provided at great expense. The men were the flower of the young men of the county. He had seen them march twenty-five miles without a man falling out, and that was as much as they could expect these troops to do. He had seen them again and again manoeuvre with great skill and when it came to fighting would they run away? It was assumed that they would. Why should they? War was not an affair merely of character and courage; it was first of all an affair of courage and common sense. Yet they had been told that in ninety-nine cases out of 100 these troops would be useless. have MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: I never made that remark or anything else like it. The only person who made it was Colonel Pollock, and he made it under totally different circumstances. MAJOR SEELY said he did not wish to misrepresent the right hon. Gentleman. He was not referring to the speech which the right hon. Gentleman made the other night, nor was he referring to him at all. He was referring to the right hon. Gentleman's school of thought, but if he challenged him the House might be asked to look at the book which he had presented to the public where they would see a most scathing indictment of civilian soldiers. The right hon. Gentleman had said again and again that they could not face European troops. He dissented from that. He believed that they would face face and Evropean troops them with success. It was said, "Oh, the Boer war was not a guide, because there you were fighting against people in their own country." We were fighting in our own territory in Natal. In courage and devotion to duty the Imperial Light Horse were every bit as good as any mounted corps in the British Army, and they did as well on the occasion of the South African War. He believed that it was possible to make an army of this kind effective for war. He would warn the right hon. Gentleman the Secre ary of State against centralisation. He would say nothing as to the details of the scheme which the right hon. Gentleman adumbrated on Monday. As to the enforcement of the penalty of £5 for leaving before the completion of the period of service he thought it would be rash to go too fast in that respect. After all they should remember the fact that some people did not serve. It would be absurd that Smith who had evaded his obligation for two years should be able to laugh while Jones who had given of his time and leisure for two | right hon. Gentleman had perhaps shown years was sent to prison because he could a certain amount of political wisnot serve a third year. That plainly was dom; because it would be more easy to a difficulty and a danger which must be abolish the Militia than to overstrain provided agains. It was said that the, the Volunteers. He assumed, for purposes Militia had been killed. That was because of argument, that the right hon. Gentledetails which could have been much better man would be able to put into effect the done on the spot had been managed scheme he had presented to the House; from a central office. When the Prussian but he thought he would be able to show Minister asked how this vast Metropolis that it was certain to break down on two with its 4,000,000 people was governed, essential points. The right hon. GenLord Palmerston was said to have tleman had told them that three arms replied: "Sir, by everyone minding were necessary in the event of war; his own business." He believed that but the right hon. Gentleman need not was the proper way to approach have invoked the authority of the Army the organisation of the Reserves. Council for that elementary fact. HowIf they were to make the National ever, he was glad that the right hon. Army Scheme а success it was Gentleman had restated it, because he absolutely necessary that some measure had made it quite clear that he realised of agreement should be come to, not that the Home Army must have a suffionly between the Government and the cient complement of all arms, and Opposition, but with hon. Members on notably of artillery. As an ex-artillerythe Irish and Labour Benches. Other- man with some experience, and one who wise the scheme was bound to fail, because had kept in contact with many scientific it could not be carried out entirely before officers of that great regiment, he prothere was another swing of the political posed to deal chiefly with that point. The pendulum. Whatever they did, let them right hon .Gentleman had said that in all agree. Therefore, he appealed for some such matters the soldiers must be the measure of unity in order to make this ultimate judges of military efficiency. great force which did not seek aggression There was in his mind very much doubt but only to make this country and its whether the right hon. Gentleman could possessions beyond the seas secure. produce any body of scientific and up-to-date officers in the Royal Regiment of Artillery who would confirm his statement that an efficient or even a tolerably efficient force artillery could be formed under the conditions laid down by the War Office. The right hon. Gentleman was, it was true, confirmed in his plan by the opinion of the hon. and gallant Member for the Abercromby Division, who, however, was too apt to draw all his theories from his limited experience in the South African War in which he had taken a diɛ. tinguished part. An inefficient field artillery was worse than none at all. It was very costly, and actually dangerou3 to the force which it accompanied. He wished to make clear to the Committee what the modern requirements of field artillery were. In the first place, the equipment was much more complicated now than it was a few years ago. had quick-firing guns, with complice.od machinery, rangefinders, telescopic sights, etc., all of which required a much higher training than used to be *MR. ARTHUR LEE (Hampshire, Fareham) said he would like to assure the Secretary for War that he had no desire to criticise his scheme in anything like a factious spirit. Nobody would be more pleased than he if the right hon. Gentleman's scheme should turn out to be as workable in practice as it had been attractive in presen ment. His right hon. friend the Member for Dover had dealt principally with the first line, or the Regular Army. He should devote himself to the second line, or what was called the Home Army. The scheme outlined by the right hon. Gentleman was extremely novel, striking and ingenious-on paper; but he was afraid that it would break down in practice on two essential points when tested by the realities of war. The net effec, so far as the Home Army was concerned, it appeared to him, would be not to tune up the Auxiliary Forces to a higher pitch than now, but to lower them to the level of the Volunteers. In that respect the They the case. drill The hon. Member for Aber- | trained all the year round, how was it cromby Division had told them about possible to get decently trained men some artillery action in South Africa after in which a single Boer artilleryman distinguished himself; but they were not considering the tactics of a single gun, but of great masses of artillery, which was a science quite apart from the mechanical skill of the men who worked the guns. Artillery firing now took place from concealed positions indirectly, by means of auxiliary marks, and it would be realised at once that a much higher standard of accuracy and of fire control was thus demanded than by the old system. A modern artillery unit had become as complicated and scientific as the artillery on board a battleship, and nothing but the most constant training and practice all the year round could give even fairly good results. Moreover, it was necessary to practice not only with a single gun, but with the battery and brigade, the tactics of manoeuvring the guns and getting them into the right place being almost as important as the performances of the guns when they got there. How was it possible that even the rudiments of these requirements could be imparted in drill for fifteen days at the maximum and five days at the minimum with a wretched nucleus of a battery of two guns? In the first place they would have to teach the new artilleryman the elements of being a soldier, and after that was done, even if he was exceptionally intelligent, the remainder of the training would have to be devoted to teaching him the ordinary drill of loading and firing off the That, however, was only the first rung of a very long ladder. They had a'so to be taught gun-laying, rangefir ding, signalling, driving, and numerous other qualifications necessary for modern artillery. He was discussing this point the other day with a very distinguished artillery officer, who told him that under the existing three years system of enlistmen, the battery commanders had the greatest difficulty of making men efficient gunners in the three years before they were sent in to the Reserve. Another officer told him that even with exceptionally intelligent recruits, not 40 per cent. after two years training, could become experts in gun-laying, and range-finding. If that were so with men continuously Mr. Arthur Lee. guns. the infinitely small amount of now proposed to be given them? The wnole proposal was ludicrous. Another officer who had watched the war operations in Manchuria told him that in the case of the Japanese army the whole of the men who started out with the ammunition columns before a year passed were serving with the batteries. That was owing to the wastage of war. How could it be expected that the civilians with whom the right hon. Gentleman proposed to fill up the ammunition columns could take the place of the men who had disappeared owing to the wastage of war and become efficient in the fighting units? Apart from the technical qualifications to which he had referred, much more co-operation was now required between the different arms of the Service in the field. At Pieter's Hill the artillery in support of the infantry attack had to fire over the heads of the infantry to the last moment, and how could that be done, unless the artillery were not only highly expert, but kept an icy coolness? Otherwise they became a menace to their comrades of the infantry and might bring about disaster to their own side. How was it possible to gain a knowledge of the requiremen's of all the three arms in the time allowed by the new scheme? And what chance was there of these men being able to acquire the necessary discipline and morale which would enable them to preserve under the demoralising and hellish effect of modern artillery fire any scientific knowledge which they had acquired? Hon. Members who had had practical experience of modern artillery fire knew how horrib'y disturbing it was even to the strongest nerves. Again the supervision of semi-professional troops would necessarily throw an almost intolerable extra strain, which was already very great, on the General Staff. If the right hon. Gentleman proposed or suggested that unexperienced untrained artillery, armed with second class inefficient weapons, should stand up before Regular troops with first class artillery he was simply inviting them to be butchered. It was an old and fatal fallacy to suppose that untrained troops could be armed with inferior |