was

Committee to inquire into the working and again a pledge was given by that of the Department of Agriculture and Government that the holder of the office Technical Instruction in Ireland. That of the head of this Department would Department was set up by an Act of remain a member of the Government. Parliament which was passed in the The present Government, however, when year 1899 and came into operation pressed for some ground for the appointin 1900. The Department, therefore, ment of this Committee were unable, in had been at work for a period of spite of strong remonstrances from that only six years. The first obser- quarter of the House, to give any explanavation he wished to make was that this tion except the production of this correwas the only case that he could recall in spondence which involved the continua somewhat prolonged experience in ance in office at the head of the Departwhich a Government had undertaken to ment of that gentleman who appoint a Committee without any undoubtedly a Unionist in politics. demand coming from any person either No doubt Sir Horace Plunkett had inside or outside the House. He would as much right to be a Unionist urge upon the Chief Secretary for Ireland as he (Mr. Dillon) had to be a the fact that there was absolutely no Nationalist, but he had no right demand from any public authority or to be a member of the present Governbody in Ireland or from Members of ment, as in reality he was, in view of the the House for an inquiry. There were pledges which had been given. He made two reasons why that demand was not no charge of any kind against the late made. First of all, because the Agri- Chief Secretary, who came into office in a cultural Department was only six years strange country in which, as the present of age, and they in Ireland thought Chief Secretary, had said, he found himself they knew all about its work; and, in an immense jungle of Boards and Desecondly, because they understood partments and officials. But he did say that the first work of the Govern- that the real object of the appointment of ment would be to re-organise all the this Committee was to find some means Departments in Ireland, and they could of continuing Sir Horace Plunkett at not conceive what good purpose would the head of the Department. If the be served by an inquiry into the working Committee had not been appointed no of the youngest Department, pending doubt Sir Horace Plunkett would have the proposal of the Government to trans- left his office in the same way that right fer all duties of this sort to popular hon. and hon. Gentlemen above the control. However limited might be the gangway had done. Inasmuch as the scheme which the Government introduced Government could give no reasons for for the transference of the powers of the the institution of the inquiry, he could Departments to the new Irish authority, only come to the conclusion that the it seemed to him an extraordinary and decision was come to before the late unprecedented course for the Govern- Chief Secretary understood the wiles ment to set up an expensive Committee and deceptions of Irish political life, costing £1,800 or £2,000 when there was and that it was forced upon him in no demand for it. When they questioned order to maintain Sir Horace Plunkett the Government on the subject, moreover, at the head of the Department. He they were unable to obtain any explana- thought he was justified in saying tion whatever, but a very remarkable that in the whole annals of the British correspondence between the late Chief House of Commons there was no case Secretary, Mr. Bryce, and Sir Horace parallel to this, where a member of a Plunkett was disclosed. Mr. Bryce asked late Administration, after his Party had Sir Horace Plunkett whether in view of left office, had been retained at the this inquiry taking place he would con- head of an important Department of tinue to act as the head of the Department pending its conclusion and State. Some of them who did not approve meanwhile cease to express his political of Sir Horace Plunkett's administraopinions. That was a most extraordinary tion, and who in any case protested request. Sir Horace Plunkett was a against this action, questioned the member of the late Government, and again Prime Minister early last sesion upon the

subject. And what did the right hon. of this Department, and he would ask Gentleman say? He said that the re- the Government, without waiting for appointment of Sir Horace Plunkett the Report, to regularise the matter was a purely temporary appointment, by removing him and redeeming the that it was solely for the purpose of pledge given to the House of Comaiding this Committee of Inquiry, and mons, by putting upon the Treasury so far as his memory carried him-that Bench someone who was in harmony it would come to an end immediately with the Government, and who could the Committee reported. And so specific share their responsibility and answer was the pledge given when the Act to the House for the operations of the was passed in 1899, that the office Agricultural Department. The Chief would be a political office, and that the Secretary was obliged to discharge the person heading it should be a member functions of many Ministers, under of the Government, that Mr. Gerald circumstances of great difficulty, going, Balfour, who was then Chief Secretary as he necessarily did, to a country for Ireland, was asked who was to with the circumstances of which he inappoint this man, and he then said the adequately acquainted. It was upon appointment would be by one of that ground that this appointment was the principal Secretaries of State. He made. If there was another Minister was to be a Minister sitting in this sitting with him in the House he would House and responsible to the House find a good deal of responsibility taken for the working of the Department. off his shoulders. They were not Why did they take this particular anxious on the Nationalist benches to opportunity of raising the question? harass the right hon. Gentleman or They desired to impress upon the to add to his labours. They were slow House that the Committee having to put questions to him. [Cheers.] carried on its inquiry, having closed That seemed to excite the hilarity of its evidence in the month of July last, considerably before the Committee on University Education closed its evidence, had not yet reported, and they had been told that the Report would not be ready until May or June, whereas the University Committee reported a month. ago. He wished to know why this Committee was appointed. Why had there been this useless expenditure? Why was the Report so long delayed? They were confirmed in the conviction that the whole purpose and object of the inquiry had been to return Sir H. Plunkett at the head of this Department in Ireland and that the purpose of the delay was to continue him in that office. He supposed the idea of certain people in Ireland was that the public mind would get accustomed to this state of affairs, and that they would say he had done very well. It was a kind of damnosa hereditas, that had been left to the Government. Why not leave him where he is?" it would be asked, and so they would be saddled with him at the head of the Department. He protested against the waste of money, against the delay in issuing the Report, and against Sir Horace Plunkett's retention at the head Mr. Dillon.

hon. Gentlemen above the gangway, but hon. Members must remember that there were eighty Irish Members and they did not put one quarter of the number of questions that other hon. Members did.

AN HON. MEMBER: We are the Opposition.

MR. DILLON: And, we I suppose, are in a state of suspended animation, voting in opposition one day and with the Government the next. The hon. Member, continuing, said that as contrasted with the questions put to the right hon. Gentleman's predecessors Irish Members were

anxious to spare the Chief Secretary. But there were many questions arising in connection with the Agricultural Department which they would like to ask, and he thought they were entitled to have a man on the Treasury Bench to reply to Whatever the Report of necessary Committee might be, that Report must be handed over to the Department which was to control these boards in the future. Surely the right hon. Gentleman would not tell the

them. this un

House that he was going to embark upon have the assistance of a colleague belongthe reorganisation of this particular ing to the same Administration sitting system of administration before he em- by his side, and taking over the very barked on the larger task of reorganising the whole administration of Ireland. If he was not going to do that he ought, in the meantime, o get rid of Sir Horace Plunkett and to put on the Treasury Bench a man who would be responsible to the House for the administration of that Department.

Amendment proposed

great burden of the administration of the Agricultural Department, until that more fortunate day arrived when that and other Departments of the State might find a proper and better administration in Ireland itself. That was the position of affairs. He could not for a moment believe that this Committee was set up by Mr. Bryce in order to keep Sir Horace Plunkett in the position which he now occupied. Mr. Bryce was of opinion.

"To leave out £10,000, and insert £9,000, that very great good could be done by -(Mr. Dillon,)--instead thereof."

Question proposed, "That £10,000' stand part of the said Resolution."

THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. BIRRELL, Bristol, N.) said he was very much obliged to the House generally for the sympathetic manner in which it had received the feeling references made to his position, and he entirely shared that sympathy himself. So far as the position of Sir Horace Plunkett was concerned, that stood exactly where it did when the Prime Minister answered the Question to which the hon. Member had referred. His Answer was a short one. It was as follows

"My view of the case is this-that the present state of things is purely temporary and purely

With

having an inquiry of the kind which had
gone on so long into the position of
agriculture, fishing, and particularly tech-
nical education, in Ireland itself.
a great knowledge of matters-greater
knowledge than he (Mr. Birrell) had-
siderable faith in the value of the Report
Mr. Bryce seemed to have had con-
which they were now expecting. The
Committee consisted of a number of

The

gentlemen well qualified to pursue the gentlemen well qualified to pursue the official of his acquaintance in his late inquiry. It included particularly an office-Mr. Ogilvie of South Kensington, than whom no man was more competent to inquire into the whole branch of technical education. There were other subjects-agriculture and fishing-on which it was considered that a Report would be most valuable, and he could assure hon. Gentlemen opposite that his predecessor appointed this Committee with great confidence that its inquiries would be most beneficial to Ireland. delay, he thought, arose partly from the extreme complication of the questions which had arisen in connection with technical education in Ireland, and also owing to the fact that one of the Committeemen-the Hon. John Dryden-was a Canadian. Whether it was wise or not to put a gentleman who resided perThat was the view the Prime Minister manently out of their jurisdiction on the then presented. Sir Horace Plunkett's Committee was another matter. But position was purely temporary, and Mr. Dryden's knowledge of agricultural there never was any intention and, problems that existed in Canada made his there was no intention whatever now, of services great.value. Unfortunately, he of the Government's allowing a post which had gone back to Canada, and the delay was created for one purpose to be re-in making the Report thus arose. tained by the same official under entirely different circumstances. He certainly looked forward to a time when he would

exceptional. There is no intention, and there never has been any intention of converting an office which is of one character into an office of another character, with the same official serving in it. That has never been contemplated. But as the whole matter was under review in order to place the Department in many respects on a better footing, it was thought that there was no harm in continuing Sir Horace Plunkett in the position rather than make a new appointment which would have to be subject to any change found to be necessary."+

+ See (4) Debates, clii., 355.

He

was afraid the Report would not be made till May. He could not hold out any hope of its being made earlier. He had communicated with Sir Kenelm

Digby, the Chairman of the Committee, He (Mr. Redmond) was a member on the subject, and he hoped when they of the body called the Recess Comgot the Report its value would justify mittee which sat before the Agricultural the length of time they had been in Department was established. It was expectation of it. The Report, what- in consequence of the Report of that ever it might contain, in no way affected Committee that the Bill was introduced the question of Sir Horace Plunkett's into the House. They made certain position. That remained entirely within recommendations to the Government, the power and disposition of the Govern- and on those recommendations the ment to consider, and it remained exactly Government brought in the Bill. One of as had been stated by the Premier. The the fundamental recommendations was appointment was a temporary one. He that this appointment should be held by a did not know that there was absolutely member of the Government, and that any occasion to wait for the result of he should sit on the Treasury Bench these inquiries, although probably it and answer Questions. What occurred? would be found better to do so. He did Sir. Horace Plunkett lost his seat in the not know how far his position was in House, and if the Government of the day any way a subject matter of the reference were not prepared to find a seat for him to the Committee, or that they would he ought to have been prepared to vacate say a single thing about it. He imagined his office. That was what any other they would report about the value of Member of the Government would have the work and suggest improvements in done. He did not do so. He remained connection with it. The subject re- in office although not in the House, and mained entirely within the power of when that Government went out of office the Prime Minister to do just as he they had the extraordinary experience of thought fit in the matter. He could not finding that when Members of the Party think that the hon. Member was right now in power were appointed to all the in" suggesting that the Committee other vacant places a Member of the which he hoped, would have valuable Unionist Party was appointed to this post. results, was simply concocted in order He was then eligible for election, and had to save the situation for Sir Horace Sir Horace Plunkett successfully contested Plunkett. a constituency they would have seen the extraordinary spectacle of a member MR. JOHN REDMOND (Waterford) of the Government sitting on the Unionist said it would have been noticed Benches, and giving expression to that the right hon. Gentleman had Unionist views. He could not conceive not said a single word in justi the right hon. Gentleman allowing such fication of this temporary appointment. He had given his explanation of the delay that had arisen with regard to the publication of the Report, and he had admitted that the appointment was a temporary appointment, and that at the time it was made, when the Agricultural Department was established, it was a political appointment, and that a pledge was given that the position should be filled by a gentleman with a seat on the Treasury Bench. But the right hon. Gentleman had not said one word in justification of the temporary appointment's being made at all. What argument was there for continuing it? It was not to be until the Committee reported, because the right hon. Gentleman said that that had probably nothing to say postponed without Question pu, pursuant to that. What, then, was the reason? to Standing Order No. 4.

Mr Birrell.

a state of things to continue for a moment. He did not wish to speculate as to the reason why Sir Horace Plunkett was given the appointment, but the fact remained that a ridiculous and anomalous situation had arisen, and for his part he joined his hon. friend in calling upon the Government not to wait for the Committee's Report, but immediately to put this office upon a constitutional basis, and to put in the place of this Unionist gentleman some member of the Government, so that there might be in the House a Minister responsible for the Department of Agriculture.

And, it being a quarter-past Eight of the Clock, further proceeding was