exuding nitric acid. On the other handthey underwent changes in their character of a much more dangerous character in a cold climate. The cold contracted the slight fibres which contained the minute globules of nitro-glycerine and these got forced out. The Department had been always watching those things, and had brought from abroad a certain quantity of these explosives for the purpose of making investigation into their nature. While that investigation was in progress it was not possible for him to give an answer to the hon. Gentleman's inquiries with any certainty. MR. MORTON asked whether the amount of £20,000 in the Vote for compensation would cover all the claims that had been lodged, and whether it was a fact that the Woolwich Arsenal authorities refused the assistance of the local fire brigade on the occasion of the explosion because they had not been properly introduced? LORD R. CECIL (Marylebone, E.) said that the right hon. Gentleman had stated that cordite changed its nature in hot climates; but he thought that very MR. HALDANE said that the exextensive experiments had been con- plosion took place in the dead of night, ducted which showed that one of its and he doubted very much whether the merits was that it did not change its fire brigade, if it had been summoned, nature in hot climates. Did he under- could have done any good. As regarded stand the right hon. Gentleman to the amount of compensation, the suggest that there was in the building Mayor and the hon. Member one certain amount of cordite in a Woolwich with state of decomposition which made it dangerous and liable to explode? If so, that was a very serious state of things. Was it quite true to state that because fragments of blasting gelatine were found undetonated, all the blasting gelatine did not detonate? a for or two responsible people in the locality were appointed a committee to go into the details, and that committee thought that £15,000 would be enough. To that sum the War Office had added £5,000 for compensation to people outside the Woolwich Corporation jurisdiction. £20,000, he thought, was a very liberal estimate. MR. HALDANE said that in regard to the blasting gelatine, if it was in such a condition that it would all readily VISCOUNT HELMSLEY (Yorkdetonate, then it must have been in an shire, N.R., Thirsk) said he supabnormal condition. Generally speaking, posed that this £20,000 of compensation cordite stood the changes of climate was given out of the goodness very well, but every now and then indi- of heart of the War Office and that cations were found-which applied to it was not a legal liability. If that all other chemical explosives-that it was the case, was it not likely to form a underwent changes under certain con- precedent which would be followed in ditions, for instance, when those ex-other cases? Would it not be possible plosives were stored near engine boilers for the Government to do something were exposed to a tropical sun; in the way of insuring against such and they had to be constantly subjected accidents ? If so, it might result in to the heat test to see whether they were considerable economy. Mr. Haldane. or MR. HALDANE said he was afraid St. Helena. They had had an interesting that the argument of the noble Lord statement from the Under-Secretary as was based on a fallacy. Insurance was to what was being done to enable St. not a cheap but always a dear thing. Helena to pay her way in future, and he The premiums paid went to the profit was not anxious to oppose the grant, but of. the insurance companies, and the he thought that there was one question average insurer paid more than the which required clearing up, and that benefits he received. The justifica- was whether we should not have to tion was that their own fortune was increase the grant in future. In small compared with the damage Committee he had stated that the which might come to it. But in necessity for the Vote had arisen owing of the Government which to the withdrawal of the garrison from had large resources it was better for the island, which had necessitated the them not to insure. In fact it was Government. He had said that the formation of a new policy by His Majesty's strict economy. Of course the Government had made no admission as to legal 100 and that their cost to this country number of men forming that garrison was liability for compensation; it would have been wrong to do so. But they had thought it right to offer this compensation as if they had been liable. the case Original Question put, and agreed to. Resolution to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again To-morrow. SUPPLY REPORT [26TH FEBRUARY]. CIVIL SERVICES (SUPPLEMENTARY) CLASS V. 1. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £32,470, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907, for sundry Colonial Services, including certain Grants-in-Aid. CLASS VII. 2. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907, for the Salaries and other Expenses of Temporary Commissions, Committees, and Special Inquiries." SUPPLY [26th FEBRUARY] REPORT. *MR. ASHLEY said they were asked in this Vote to grant a sum of £4,070 as a grant in aid of the flax industry in was between £10,000 and £12,000. The garrison consisted of 250 men, and that Under-Secretary said, however, that the the saving to the nation in consequence of their withdrawal was something like £30,000 or £40,000. For himself he had founded his speech on a statement made by the Secretary of State for War last March when he introduced his Army Estimates. In the course of that speech the Secretary of State said that he found that the Island of St. Helena had a garrison of 100 men costing £10,000 or £12,000 a year. Therefore, according to the Secretary of State the saving was not between £30,000 or £40,000, as the Under-Secretary had stated, but only between £10,000 and £12,000. Before they voted this £4,070 he thought they ought to know whether these 100 or 250 men were still in existence or were they included in the 20,000 men who had been disbanded, because if they had not been disbanded the nation had still to pay for them. If we had to pay this £4,070 and also for a force which was still in existence it would be better to leave the men at St. Helena and allow the island to go on normally as before, instead of starting a new industry which in future would probably have to be assisted by fresh grants-in-aid. thought that some information was necessary in order to enable the House t› decide whether the Vcte should be with held or whether an increased Vote would be necessary. He thought that, if in regard to our Colonies and dependencies. we blew hot and cold upon them, when we blew cold we ought to see that they were not left in a state of starvation. As far as the flax industry was concerned, it Hy *MR. SPEAKER did not see how the Under-Secretary for the Colonies could answer those questions, nor did he think them relevent to the particular Resolution before the House. The question to which the hon. Member alluded must be raised on some other Vote. seemed to him a little doubtful whether | Admiralty, or upon the advice of the its cultivation would be a success. In Chief of the Staff of the Army Council, Ireland the area in which flax was culti- or was it done simply on the authority vated in 1874 was 106,000 acres, but in of the War Office itself. 1902 it had fallen to 50,000, and the year before last it amounted to only 46,000; that was to say, it had diminished by more than one half. If in a country where the crops were so near the mills where the flax was prepared the area devoted to its cultivation had decreased by one half in so short a time, it seemed to him that it would be impossible for the islanders of St. Helena to make a living *MR. HICKS BEACH said he would out of flax. The Government were going not pursue the question further, except to bring an expert from New Zealand to to say that he thought the Underhelp the islanders in regard to this culti-Secretary for the Colonies was in possesvation. But they were only going to sion of all the information about the pay £400 a year for the expert, and withdrawal of the troops. It was said he did not think that for that sum that the Government would save money by that withdrawal, but he submitted that if in time of war a garrison had to be sent out that would not be so. much of an expert would be obtained, especially when it was considered that the man was to be brought from New Zealand and "dumped down" in St. Helena. He doubted whether the Government were helping the islanders by their policy, and although he did not wish to oppose the Vote, he thought they were indulging in a risky experiment and did not know what they were undertaking. *MR. HICKS BEACH (Gloucestershire, Tewkesbury) also wished to say a few words upon this Resolution, not because he objected to the introduction of the flax industry, but because he had his doubts as to whether the Government had been right in deciding to withdraw the garrison from St. Helena, a step which had led to great distress. For many years there had been a garrison at St. Helena, and in consequence of their presence a trade had grown up in the various commodities on which the soldiers spent their pay. In consequence of the withdrawal of the troops, however, that trade had disappeared. Last year the Secretary of State for War stated that £35,000 would be saved by withdrawing the garrison, which then numbered, he thought, 180 men. That was a considerable amount, and if the sum which was now under discussion was to be granted out of the Exchequer, he thought it ought to be taken into consideration. He would like to ask the Under-Secretary for the Colonies why the withdrawal of the garrison was ordered? Was it done on the advice of the First Sea Lord of the Mr. Ashley. *MR. SPEAKER pointed out that there was no question of war in this case. It was only a question of the flax industry and of the grant in aid of it. *MR. HICKS BEACH said he was sorry to transgress so often, but he merely wished to point out that the grant-inaid was brought about by the withdrawal of the garrison. He thought that if the island was to be made use of in time of war it would be more economical to keep the garrison at St. Helena and maintain the fortifications than to give a grantin-aid of the flax industry. He would not, however, refer to that subject any further, but he desired to allude to the grant of £4,070 for starting this new industry. He wished to know whether the Colonial Office proposed to send out immediately any grant for the purpose of alleviating the present distress. Numbers of people were out of work; bridges and roads were falling into disrepair because there was no money to spend on them. And as to the grant itself, was the Colonial Government in St. Helena to be responsible for the spending of the money? Was it a free gift, or was there to be an obligation on the Colonial Government to return it at some future time, or to pay a certain sum per annum as interest to the Imperial Government? He believed that flax had been grown for many years in the island, and the attempt had been made to con- be useful for their present purposes he vert it into fibre; but owing to the thought they might be much better machinery being indifferent and placed spent on our own people in our own in the wrong situation, the enterprise country. He referred particularly to had not been a success. With regard Sutherlandshire. Chinese repatriation to the item of £400 for a flax had been so frequently discussed that it expert who was to be brought from was not necessary to deal with it toNew Zealand, he had no experience of night, but he certainly did object to the wages in New Zealand, but he should say term Chinese coolies appearing in the that that was quite an adequate sum to Papers of the House instead of the pay for one year. At the present moment proper term, which was Chinese the cattle owners of St. Helena owned some slavery. At the time of the general 1,200 head of stock, and having regard election it was called Chinese slavery, to the fact that they were encouraged by and he believed it was Chinese slavery the Government to increase their stock still, and the worst form of slavery in order that the island might be self- known, being slavery for the making of supporting in time of war, he thought money, and it was the sort of slavery they should receive some compensation described by Wesley as "The Sum of all from the Government now that their Villainy." He had had no explanation marke for the stock had dis- from the Government as to why they appeared. They had spent a consider- had altered the name. Then there was able sum in increasing their stock, the grant for the Imperial Institute, an and the result of the withdrawal of the entirely new item. Nobody knew how garrison was that they were left with that money was going to be spent. But that stock, which they could no he knew how tha body had wasted the sell in the island and which they hundreds and thousands of pounds which could not export owing to the heavy had been given to them during the last freights. The property owners of James- twenty years. It was time they stopped town also had been put to con- those grants to an Institute which did siderable expense in connection with a no useful work, but spent the money on scheme of drainage which they did not salaries and getting titles. He noticed think necessary, but which was under- that the Estimate was £1,400, and that if taken at the instance of the Royal it was passed the Imperial Institute was Engineers because the Government to have the money for three years, so that were preparing to build new barracks in the town. The troops were now withdrawn and the barracks had not been built, and it was rather hard that those property owners should be called upon to expend money upon an improve ment they did not require. He thought they were entitled to some consideration from the Government in that regard. He thanked the Government for the grant they were making to St. Helena, and hoped that he would receive an answer from the hon. Gentleman the UnderSecretary to the questions he had put to him. the sum they would get would be £4,200 not £1,400 only. On the previous occasion they had not the opportunity of asking the Under-Secretary for the Colonies to explain the Vote, and consequently the hon. Gentleman had not explained it. He did not believe the hon. Gentleman could, but still they were entitled to hear him try to do so and to endeavour to give them some information as to what was going to be done with the money. There was another matter he should like to see inquired into. In 1887, some £30,000 was collected in the City for the purpose of erecting a building within the City, and to *MR. MORTON regretted that he be used for Colonial trade purposes. The had to occupy the attention of the money was ear-marked and left in trust House on this occasion, but owing for that object. The adventurers got the to the Vote having been closured money somehow and spent it in salaries, Committee no opportunity had etc. A trust should be sacred. When been given to discuss these particular was that trust money to be returned? items. His main objection to some of With all the charges on this country them was that although they might and the claims upon it for old age in It pensions and other things, including until they could put the grant into the the repayment of debt, the House ordinary Estimates, and so avoid the was asked to give £4,500 to a set diversion of this sum from the National of adventurers who were only looking Debt? He saw that two of the grants out for titles when he himself wanted were to be subject to audit. The grant the money for real bona fide objects to St. Helena was to be subject to the in Sutherlandshire. The best way which audit of the Comptroller and Auditorhon. Members could occupy their time General, but no surrender of any unwas in criticising the money Votes, expended balance was to be made to and it was their duty to take care the Exchequer. In those circumstances, that British money was not wasted. he did not in the least understand what He trusted the Government would useful purpose would be served by an bear in mind not only their own audit, which was to ensure that the pledges but the pledges given by the money had been spent in accordance Liberal Party at the general election with the order of the House, and that to economise and they should resist any balance left was to be surrendered the attempts of that sort of people who to the Exchequer. If the money was came claiming thousands for no useful to be handed over to St. Helena straight purpose. He trusted also that the away, and not a farthing was to come hon. Gentleman would tell the House back in the ordinary financial course, who constituted the Imperial Institute an audit was perfectly useless. and what claim they had to any of the mattered nothing to the House whether money of the taxpayers of the country. the Government of St. Helena had spent the money on flax, rum, tobacco, or MR. BOWLES (Lambeth, Norwood) any other object. It would be represaid he desired to ask the Under-Secre- hensible in the Government of St. Helena, tary for the Colonies what was the justi- but it seemed to him that as far as the fication he had to offer for presenting Treasur, were concerned, if they were these Estimates, which were small ones, under no circumstances to see any of as Supplementary Estimates at all. Why the money again, it was a perfectly useshould they be presented as Supple- less expense and trouble to provide mentary Estimates rather than as an audit. He certainly recognised that dinary Estimates for next year? The Supplementary Estimates as a whole were £32,000 which they were now asked to objectionable, and some of those now vote would go in the ordinary course before the House were of a novel charto the reduction of the National Debt. acter. They were small, and he did not He thought the hon. Gentleman and the in the least feel justified in making any House would agree that the present very serious complaint of them. He state of National Debt was a far more hoped, however, that the hon. Gentleman important matter, generally speak would be able to tell them what in his ing, to which the money should be opinion was the use of an audit when no applied, than anyone of the four pur- balance was to be surrendered to the poses with which they were now dealing. Exchequer. He submit ed that it was only justifiable to divert such money from the re- THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF duction of Deb if some really grave emergency could be shown. He had looked over the items, and although they might be perfectly proper, so far as he was able to judge, he did not see any great urgency or exigency such as alone would justify the diversion of money from the reduction of the National Debt. For instance, in regard to the small grant to St. Helena, if they could not find the money, was it really impossible to wait three weeks, for that was all it meant, Mr. Morton. or STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. CHURCHILL, Manchester, N.W.) said the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had very properly devoted his attention to the severely financial aspect of the Supplementary Estimate now before the House. He entirely agreed with the strong prejudice which the hon. Gentleman had expressed against Supplementary Estimates. He was sure that it ought to be the practice of every Government to keep them within moderate |