now concerned with the point of view of the Sabbatarian or the total abstainer. He believed that it would be for the benefit of the whole community, and especially of those engaged in the trade, if the evil of the Sunday sale of liquor were stopped, and that it was the right and duty of the State to interfere. Even if it did not reduce the consumption of liquor or the excessive drinking which was sometimes talked of, such a step would be right and reasonable in principle. He therefore begged leave to move the Resolution of which he had given notice. *MR. THOMAS RICHARDS (Monmouthshire, W.), in seconding, said it was with great pleasure that he rose to second this important Resolution. He regretted that the extremely limited time at their disposal would permit only of a few remarks from him in its support. There was one fact he wished to impress upon those who would probably oppose the proposal, and it was that this was pre-eminently a working man's question. It was a significant fact that all the representatives of Labour in the House would vote in favour of the Resolution, and he asked those who were going to oppose it to do so honestly and straightforwardly in the interests they had at heart, and not to tell the House that they were doing it in the interests of labour. He knew the working man of Wales better than the working man of England, and therefore he could only speak for English working men in a smaller degree. He had, however, recently had an interesting experience at Bristol. A meeting was held there to ascertain the views of the working men citizens of Bristol upon the proposals of the Government in regard to licensing reform and Sunday closing. On the same platform at that meeting were high dignitaries of the Church of England, Nonconformist ministers, Catholic priests, Salvation Army officers, merchant princes, the Member for Bath, and himself. They were all treated in the same manner, and they were howled at for over two hours. Those who disturbed the meeting had been specially invited to do so by the Members representing the trade, and circulars were sent out by the Licensed Victuallers' Association, urging the men to be at the hall by 6.10, the meeting having been called for 7.30. He was informed that the capacity of the hall was about 4,000. The Resolution was put to the meeting and between 80 and 90 per cent of the 4,000 people voted in favour of it. Whatever might be said of the people in the other big cities and towns of England, it appeared that the citizens of Bristol were in favour of Sunday closing. He had sufficient faith in the English working man to know that removing the temptation to spoil his only day of peace and rest and quiet intercourse with his family was certainly not putting him in bonds but increasing his measure of freedom. He wished to impress on the Government, in connection with their measure of licensing reform, that whatever was done with the general question, and whatever might be the opinion of England on the question, there could be no doubt of the feeling of Monmouthshire-they wished to be included in Welsh Sunday closing. It was said, with very little proof, that Welsh Sunday closing was not a success, but how could it be a complete success when Monmouthshire was not included, and thirsty souls in the mining villages and towns along the river could simply go over to West Monmouth, and spoil not only their own Sundays, but also the Sundays of others who believed that the Sunday should be devoted to the elevation of mankind? He was old-fashioned enough, perhaps from his upbringing as a Welshman, to have implicit faith in the benefits of Christian fellowship and public worship on Sunday; he deplored, more strongly than he could express in the House, any influence that robbed the working man of the proper use of his Sunday. Both from a religious and an economic standpoint he was against all those who advocated indulgence by working men in so-called amusements and selfish pleasures to the neglect of their higher duties and their proper preparation for the coming week. He remembered not long ago a zealous Churchman writing to the Archbishop of Canterbury asking whether it was consistent with Christian principles for the late Prime Minister to play golf on Sunday. He must confess that while the right hon. Gentleman was making his passionate appeals during the discussion of the Education Bill for the religious education of the children he had often wondered what would have been the right hon. Gentleman's interpretation for little children of the injunction to keep Motion made, and Question proposed, "That, with a view to limit the excessive hours of work on licensed premises, to dimish drinking, to prevent unfair competition with other traders, and to secure a better observance of Sunday, this House records its opinion that licensed premises in England, as in other parts of the British Empire, should be closed on Sundays."-(Mr. Nicholls.) MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS (Kent, St. Augustine's): This subject has been constantly debated in the House with great eloquence and vigour, but I must confess that having been privileged to listen to these debates over a period of the Sabbath day holy. Possibly the right the only day he could be at home, waited hon. Gentleman would agree with the in dread his return from the public reply sent by the Archbishop of Canter- house. He begged to second the Motion. bury that a person should spend his Sunday in a manner which would best fit him to perform the duties of the week. For himself he could hardly have thought it possible for a dignitary of any Christian community to send a reply to such a letter without any reference at all to the institution of public worship on that day. He would go somewhat further and say that no man had a right so to spend his Sunday as to rob another man of the rest necessary to fit him for the duty of the coming week, whether at the public-house, or the golf links, or on the bicycle or on the motor-car. He had had one little experience of Sunday closing. He lived in a village situated about 1,300 feet above the sea on the fringe of the Breconshire Beacons, there was a population of twenty-seven years, I have not yet been about 3,500, and when the Welsh Sunday Act came into operation there were twenty-five public-houses, twenty-four situated in Breconshire and one in Monn.outhshire. The operation of the Act closed the twenty-four public-houses, and fortunately the other one was in the hands of a young man who carried it on because it had been left to him, but who was not in sympathy with the trade. Although he could have opened the only public-house for a population of 3,500, he sacrificed a fortune for temperance principles, and closed the house. For a period of seven years, the village enjoyed complete Sunday closing, and it was not too much to say that a large percentage of the working men who formerly used to spend their time in the publichouse on Sunday, to the neglect of their wives and children, became reformed men. Then the Local Government Act came into operation, and the village was transferred into Monmouthshire for administrative purposes, and it was transformed from a scene of peace and quietness on Sundays into a scene of drunken debauch, and in many instances wives, and children who should have welcomed the presence of their father on Mr. Thomas Richards. convinced that the total closing of publichouses, or licensed premises on Sunday, would be for the benefit of the people at large. There is not one hon. Member on either side of the House who does not wish to see a decrease of drunkenness, and to make our Sundays sober; but, to remove the facilities now offered for the use of licensed premises would be, in my opinion, to impose considerable hardship on the community. The hon. Member for Monmouthshire, West, drew a lurid picture of a meeting he had attended the other day, and I trust that in defending the existing system I will not bring judgment on myself. I know that there are many hon. Gentlemen sitting on my side of the House who do not agree with the views I hold. The mover of this Motion said that this was not a Party question. Licensed houses are already closed in this country for the greater part of the day on Sunday, and I am one of those who think that any further restriction would interfere unduly with the requirements of those who legitimately go to licensed premises on Sunday. Except during certain wellknown short hours no one can be served with liquor in a licensed house on Sunday unless he is lodging in that house or is a | If you look at the comparative tables bona-fide traveller. I confess that these you will find that the illicit sale of facilities are, in my opinion, reasonable liquor is larger in Ireland, Scotland, and facilities. It has not been suggested by Wales than it is in England. [“No, any competent authority that so long as no."] If you look at the statistical the houses remain open on Sunday the returns you will find that is so. One hours are unduly long. I would remind other argument I will use. I am afraid the House that the majority Report of the that if you have total closing on Sunday Licensing Commission says that- you will run a serious danger of increasing that very obnoxious form of drinking "Complete Sunday closing throughout England would be, in our judgment, a step far in advance of public opinion." That Report is as true to-day as when it was issued. It is said that Sunday closing is attended with good results in different parts of the Empire. A question of this sort is personal to the inhabitants of each country, whose habits may differentiate their case. A thickly populated country with a considerable proportion of its inhabitants given to outings on Sundays differs from one. where the tendency of the people is more stay at home. The hon. Member specially relied upon the instance of Scotland. He says that the effect of the Act which has been many years in operation has been one of great benefit, and that it has reduced drinking; but he did not rely so much upon the argument that it has reduced drunkenness. I am afraid he would find, if he looked at the comparative tables published in the judicial returns, that the proportion of drunkenness is greater in Scotland, Wales, and Ireland than it is in England, where we have no Sunday closing. I may have had an unfortunate experience, but from my personal experience in Scotland I have observed more intemperance on Sunday there than it has been my good fortune to observe in England. - [Laughter.] I admit the slip. I should have said I have been fortunate in finding in England more sobriety on a Sunday than I have in Scottish towns and mining villages with which I am acquainted. There is another argument. If you adopt local Sunday closing I think you will increase the liability to illicit sale of liquor. You would encourage bogus clubs and shebeens, the evils of which are notorious. secret drinking. It will compel people to lay in a stock on Saturday, for they will not give up all alcoholic drinks on Sunday. If you do not give them legitimate opportunities of getting beverages from public-houses you will encourage them to lay in spirits, and the presence of such beverages in the house would be a great source of temptation to women and children to indulge in drink. The hon. Gentleman has spoken of canvasses taken. We have been told that a plebiscite was taken in Bristol. But we have not been told what were the views of those who were not canvassed. We cannot conclude that those opposed to Sunday closing will be satisfied with the statements made unless it can be shown that the majority of the people are in favour of it. But the figures in the case of Bristol show a small proportion of the population in favour of the movement. For my part I think total Sunday closing would be an infringement of the liberty of the subject, would lead to the illicit sale of liquor, would increase secret drinking, and be a hardship upon the poorer classes, and for this reason I hope the House will reject the Motion. MR. AKERS DOUGLAS: I did not say that. I said the judicial statistics showed that there was more drunkenness on those days than in this country. It had not been always that the Conser- that the total number of arrests on vative Party had held that view. In the Saturdays was 3,966, on Sundays it Local Government Bill of 1888 it was pro- dropped to 846, and on Mondays it rose posed to give the county councils the again to 2,032. How could those figures power of regulating the closing of public- be explained? They showed that on houses on Sundays, and that was a Bill Sundays, when the working classes had which bore on its back the names of Mr. W. more leisure than on other days, and when H. Smith, Mr. Goschen, Mr. Ritchie, Mr. their wages were still hot in their pockets, Secretary Mathews, and Mr. W. Long. there was a great decrease in drunkenIt was inconsistent and illogical to say that ness, and it was impossible to deny that Sunday closing was wrong in principle, an that must be connected with the restricted infringement of the liberty of the indivi- hours of opening liquor shops on that dual, if carried out by statute, but right if day. The right hon. Gentleman said, carried out by local authorities. The whole however, that, in Scotland, Wales and argument the right hon. Gentleman had Ireland Sunday closing had had little advanced was the old doctrine that it was effect in decreasing drunkenness. That impossible to make men sober by Act of was not so. Parliament. That ancient, hollow, and wholly unfounded principle was, it seemed, shared by the Party opposite. They could not indeed create in men's minds the virtue of sobriety, but they could enforce upon them the habits of sobriety. They not only could, but at this moment they were making men sober by the influence of law. Would the right hon. Gentleman contend that, if Parliament were to abolish the licensing laws, the taxes upon alcohol, the penalties on drunkenness, if it were to allow men to sell liquor as they chose, at the cost of manufacture, without punishment for its misuse, it would not be to the disadvantage of sobriety? Did he doubt for a single moment that a large section of the nation would be plunged into an orgy of drunkenness? They not only could, but at this moment they did make men sober by the Acts of Parliament now in operation. Temperance reform by legislation was not a hopeless thing, and certainly one direction in which it should be attempted was in the direction of the sale of liquor on Sundays. He had obtained within the last few days from the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police some statistics which showed for the months of November, December, and January the arrests for drunkenness on Saturdays, Sundays, and Mondays. Those figures showed Mr. Herbert Samuel. *MR. HERBERT SAMUEL said he very much questioned that. In any case it was exceedingly difficult to compare the figures for arrests in one part of the country with the figures in any other part of the country. Those statistics must be of moderate value, because everything depended upon the degree of stringency with which the law was administered by the police. But every Committee or Commission which had inquired into the questionand they must attach some weight to careful inquiries like those-had said, without exception, that large improvements had been secured in the direction of sobriety in Scotland, Ireland, and Wales, by Sunday closing. A Government such as the present, formed with the prime and essential purpose of promoting measures of social reform, must view with sympathy the main principle that underlay the Motion of his hon. friend. It had many powerful forces behind it. It had the religious forces of the community desiring to obtain a better observance of Sunday; it had the great body of temperance workers throughout the nation, to whose efforts No wonder in those circum England owed so much, and who asked week. for Sunday closing as a means of securing stances that the death-rate in the less alcoholic excess; and it had the sup- trade was the highest of any occupation. port of the forces of organised labour. The House might imagine how much. Organised labour supported such a bodily vigour and mental energy were Motion because it was realised that left to men and women subjected to this was not only a religious matter such excessive overwork. This question. but essentially a labour question as of Sunday closing was no simple well, and this element was a factor problem. There were a great variety of the highest importance. He did not of proposals as to the best methods know whether the House quite realised of dealing with it. The majority how excessive were the hours of the men of the Royal Commission on the and women engaged in public houses. Liquor Laws recommended a slight There was no trade in the whole reduction in the hours of opening. A country-not even that of shop as minority of that Commission, including sistants, nor of omnibus men and Lord Peel, recommended that the hours car-drivers and conductors-who were should be reduced to one hour at mid-day more grossly overworked than the and two hours in the evening as a bar-maids and barmen who served in maximum, and that the licensing public-houses. He looked yesterday authority should have power to reduce or at the evidence before the Labour Com- to close entirely. Travellers, in the mission of some years ago to discover discretion of the licensing authority, what the hours really were. He found a should be allowed to be served, but most remarkable and striking piece of in any case only in hotels and evidence from the chairman of the restaurants, and after a journey of Licensed Victuallers' Central Protection seven miles. Five Members who had Board of London, who came before that signed the Minority Report went further Commission to rebut the gross exaggera- and recommended total closing. Others tion of those who said the hours of labourin have proposed a measure of local option, public-houses were excessively long. That others that houses might be closed gentleman said that allowing for meal against consumption on the premises, times, and allowing for periods of rest but allowed to be open for a limited during the day, the actual working hours sale of liquor for consumption off of men and women in well-managed public- them, whilst others were desirous of houses were no more than twelve hours leaving the matter entirely to the and ten minutes a day on week-days, with discretion of the licensing authority. The an addition of eight hours on Sunday-a Government believed that some elasticity total of eighty-one hours per week; and was necessary. He did not know that from that figure, he said, with consider the ordinary English workman sitting able pride, they must deduct the holiday of at his Sunday dinner, perhaps the chief one week-day every four weeks which the culinary event of the week, surrounded barmen and barmaids are allowed to take. by his family, with his glass of ale at Mr. Charles Booth's investigations con- his side, was SO wholly degraded firmed those figures and showed that a figure that they should attack him barmen and barmaids worked over eighty, with all the terrors of the law. and sometimes up to ninety hours per Then, again, there were those who |