the Abercromby Division had told them that those untrained men were as good as the finest trained troops of any European power. MAJOR SEELY: I never said any thing of the sort. according to Sir Evelyn Wood, that 35 to 40 per cent. of the striking forces were inefficient and unfit to proceed to the front. In what respect was that great evil remedied by the right hon. Gentleman? He could see in the striking force now proposed no prospect of any change in those conditions. The Reserves would have to be called out at once to join the colours whenever the new Army was *SIR W. EVANS GORDON said his mobilised. The seventy-four battalions recollection was that the hon. and gallant which were to be created would be called Member had said that in the most up and trained for six months, and then emphatic way. He had also said that they were to go into the ranks of the they on the Opposition Benches believed Regular Army. This period of six months seven years was the least period in which had evidently been fixed without any a really good and efficient soldier could reference to the enemy. The two con- be made, but that opinion had never tingencies we had to deal with were a raid been shared by him. The view on that or a great war, on the Indian frontier, for point which had been expressed by his example. In the case of a raid, did the hon. and gallant friend was not supright hon. Gentleman suppose that it was ported by any military authority in the going to be conducted on the principle of world. It was never true and was less six months notice? In the event of a true now than ever. It was a principle great frontier campaign one big action in which did no apply to any profession or modern war might require us to replace calling. They did not expect an untrained 30,000 men at once, and the seventy-four lawyer to be as good as а trained battalions were to be the reservoir from lawyer, nor an untrained carpenter to which the drafts were to be obtained. be as good as a trained carpenter. It Those battalions were to train "the sub- was impossible to train men for war in stance" of what was in the Militia before. the time suggested by hon. Members But the right hon. Gentleman was not in opposite. They might as well take a the least certain of getting the substance. county council school football team Ultimately they were to contain from and pit them against the trained team 500 to 600 men, liable-he did not from New Zealand. Such troops would say fit-to come up on mobilisation to go inevitably be swept away by trained abroad, and they were to serve as a troops, however gallant they might reservoir to supply drafts for the Regular be. He was confident that they battalions. The right hon. Gentleman would do their best, but they would be proposed to get from those young men at hopelessly handicapped, and every miliseventeen years of age with only fifteen tary opinion in this or any other country days training, 12,000 trained men, and was absolutely opposed to the view those young untrained men to expressed by the hon. and gallant Member form the Reserve to be drafted into the for the Abercromby Division. There was fighting line to make good the wastage of no man in the House of Commons to a great campaign. He did not believe whom the words "honourable and galthat any competent military opinion lant" applied so appropriately as they would be found ready to endorse such a did to the hon. and gallant Member, but scheme. The battalions were never he possessed another quality. He had an to go abroad as units, but they were to enormous, almost a sublime, confidence in form mobilisation centres, and the himself, and no doubt he would be Regulars were to recruit there. That willing to take anybody on at any game system would only repeat the evils they they liked to mention. He would cheerhad already experienced in regard to the fully tackle Mr. Hackenschmidt at wrestMilitia, namely, that the battalions ling, Mr. Stevenson at billiards, or the would drain off all their best men for the Under-Secretary for the Colonies in Regular Army, and the residue would be debate, and he would feel confident left as a perfectly useless portion of that that he was going to succeed, but force. The hon. and gallant Member for whether he would succeed or not was quite another matter. The Secre- the Secretary of State for War might be, tary of State the other day made the as those familiar with Parliamentary remarkable statement that our prepara- procedure were aware, that the language tions for war should slumber in time of of the draughtsman was very different peace. That was a strange statement from the language of the lucid exponent to come from a War Minister. He ad- we have in the right hon. Gentleman. vertised to the world that we required Therefore, I only rise for the purpose of six months to train the men in order to inviting the right hon. Gentleman to fit them for any campaign. When the make a few remarks before the debate six months were over, how many of closes. I venture to think that he will those men would really be able, however feel it his duty to give to the House his willing, to join the fighting force? views in regard to one or two of the The right hon. Gentleman said at one broad features which seem to emerge out moment that the Territorial Army was of the debate to which we have listened. for the defence of these shores, and at What is the bald, plain object of this another that it was to be a reservoir to re- Bill? I am not going to roam over the cruit and reinforce the fighting force whole field of the exigencies of the abroad. The right hon. Gentleman went Empire. The object of the Bill is to further, and said that he hoped and be- change what are called the Auxiliary lieved that the men would not only go as Forces into something else to modify individuals, but as regiments, and even as them drastically as to terms of service, brigades. Had the right hon. Gentleman pay, and organisation. The first thing really gone into the facts? What ma- that strikes me in the scheme is the terial was this territorial Army to come astonishing coincidence between the numfrom? They would to a large extent be ber of real effectives we now have in the the present Volunteers under ano her Auxiliary Forces and the number of men name. He maintained that although whom the right hon. Gentleman hopes they might be willing, a vast propor- to get by his scheme. A still more tion were absolutely unable to serve astonishing coincidence is that between the country abroad for the simple the cost of the present Auxiliary Forces reason that they were men with families and the estimated cost of the new and dependants. They would throw Territorial Army. The present Militia, their wives and children into starvation Militia Reserve, Yeomanry and Volunif they were to take part in a long cam teers number 380,000 men and cost paign. Therefore of the 300,000 Volun- £4,250,000. The right hon. Gentleman teers a large proportion could never altered everything in relation to these leave their homes to engage in a foreign forces, and after speculative investigawar, and those who did go would be tion announced that the alterations half-trained men under half-trained would give us again 380,000 men at a I was officers. The right hon. Gentleman was cost of £4,250,000. so struck incurring a grave responsibility in asking by this that I asked the late Solicitorthe country to believe that, out of the General, if he were engaged in a law heterogeneous forces which he proposed case instead of in the present debate, to collect, it would possess an Army what course he would pursue, and seriously able to help us in a great my learned friend said that the first na ional emergency. question he would put to the actuary whom he would put in the witness box would be how he regarded this extraordinary coincidence that the alterations would give us again the exact number of men at a cost exactly the same to a penny; and his learned friend said that the actuary would be bound to say he believed that the odds against the extraordinary coincidence were MR. WYNDHAM (Dover): I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will be the first person to agree with me that when a Minister brings in a long and complicated measure it is usual for him to say a few words at the end of the debate on the First Reading. If he did not, what would ensue would be that the Bill would be circulated in a day or two, and the first impression on reading the Bill after listening to the speech of explanation of this most astonishing Sir W. Evans Gordon. a million to one. I think the right hon. Gentleman must give the House some side of the matter. As I understand it, coincidence. The Bill has been com- say how the Reserve from the Regular Gentleman complains of the civil member battalions will stand. The right hon. of the Council taking charge of the affairs Gentleman said actuarial calculations of the second line. The right hon. showed that the Reserve stands at Gentleman was at one time Under130,000 and will decline and stop at the Secretary at the War Office, and if this normal figure of 115,000. I am not reorganisation had taken place in his questioning the right hon. Gentleman's time the right hon. Gentleman himself good faith, but I have my suspicions of would have been the civil member. The actuaries, and I may point out that with right hon. Gentleman is marked out as all the engines and methods for building the ideal man for that position. If the up a Reserve in the past ten years the right hon. Gentleman does not realise Reserve now stands at 113,000 which is that, it is to be hoped the country will 2,000 below the establishment. Now realise it, so that his services shall not that the right hon. Gentleman has dis- be lost. Then the right hon. Gentleman carded that machinery and substituted spoke of the commanding officers of the seven years for three years, how is he territorial regiments. He said the lordgoing to get those 2,000 additional men? lieutenant of the county was a person who was too busy. In this scheme we *MR. HALDANE : The right hon. are not looking to the lord-lieutenant. Gentleman has entered in the last stage The commanders of different arms are of his speech upon a most dangerous and incorporated in a committee which controversial topic-actuarial calcula-manages these things, and there will be tions. I will give some reasons why I at least a hope that they will have think the right hon. Gentleman's doubts sitting with them a representative of are ill-founded. In the first place, he the Regular general. It is the very spoke of the battalions and the number of men who had enlisted and passed into the Reserve seven years ago. But how long had the numbers which he had then been in existence? There was battalion after battalion added at the beginning of the South African war, and many of those battalions had not time to pass into the Reserve. That was why his Reserve was low. The right hon. Gentleman has omitted to take into account that we have troops abroad as well as at home. Taking the troops serving with the Colours both at home and abroad as between 200,000 and 300,000, the numbers of the Reserve must be somewhere where I myself have placed it. If there are 240,000 men with the Colours, and they serve seven years with the Colours and then five years in the Reserve, the numbers in the Reserve must stand as five stood to seven. Therefore, when I put the Reserve at 115,000 there ought to be a good margin on my side. A plain person of common sense whose mind has not been debauched by actuarial calculations will be able to see that. My figures have been furnished and are certified by the first authorities at the War Offce. Then the right hon. Mr. Wyndham. people who do the business who will conduct the administrative side. As to their being too busy, it is their very particular affairs they would be looking after, and they will have professional assistance. I hope also the chairman will be a competent man of business. The other point of the right hon. Gentleman is the question of coincidences between the cost and the numbers. I can only tell him that as regards the cost, I gave it to the Financial Department of the War Office to work out the cost of keeping in being a force of this kind-the second line force. It was estimated on the not very niggardly scale of £2,800,000, which is a sum largely in excess of what a much larer army costs in Switzerland. The £1,500,000 that remains is more than sufficient to provide the Special Contingent element. With regard to numbers, again there is no mystery about them. I do not quite recognise the coincidence. MR. WYNDHAM: If the right hon. Gentleman adds Militia reserve, Yeomanry, and Volunteer reserve together, he will find that the total comes to 374,000 or 376,000. That is very *MR. HALDANE: The argument of the right hon. Member would have been admirable if he had not taken the establishment for one purpose and the strength nearly 380,000, an approximation that the deeply interesting statement of the must, I am afraid, have rather dazzled right hon. Gentleman, but nevertheless the actuary. there were points which they might suggest to the right hon. Gentleman even at this stage. The Secretary of State had stated that the object of the Bill was decentralisation, but so far as the Auxiliary Forces were concerned it was very far from carrying out any such intention. In regard to the Volunteers the commanding officers of battalions had the disposal of certain payments, they provided training, drill halls, equipment and other things out of an amount of £3 16s. 6d. per man. The balance of for the other. MR. WYNDHAM: That is exactly what the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War has done. I have taken the effectives, but the right hon. Gentleman called it establishment when he took his estimate. I cannot take the right hon. Gentleman's estimates until the £7 Capitation Grant, £3 3s. 6d. was I know whether he will get them. *MR. HALDANE: I was comparing establishment with establishment, and strength with strength; I did not jump from strength to establishment and from establishment back to strength. If there is a coincidence there is a good reason for it. This has been a remarkably interesting discussion, but I think it will be convenient for the House to discuss the Bill further when it is in print. I shall be glad, therefore, if the House will give me now the First Reading. *MR. CARLILE (Hertfordshire, St. Albans) who was received with cries of "Divide, Divide," said the Motion to suspend the 11 o'clock rule had not come from the benches on which he sat, therefore he ventured to suggest to hon. Members and right hon. Members opposite from whose side it did come, that it was scarcely seemly that at six minutes past eleven they should propose that the debate should cease. MR. CLOUGH rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put;" but Mr. Speaker withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question. *MR. CARLILE said no hostile criticism would come from him or his friends after VOL. CLXX. [FOURTH SERIES.] spent on permanent staff. Under the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman. they would have, instead of decentralisation, the whole matter centralised in the county associations. Such a thing would be disastrous to the Volunteer service which the right hon. Gentleman desired to benefit. At the present time the Militia cost £22 a head and had twentyeight days training. The Volunteers cost £7 per head and did from eight to fifteen days' training. He ventured to say that under the county associations administration was not likely to be so economical as under the commanding officer, who was responsible for the funds and was most interested in the efficiency of the battalion. He noticed that the right hon. Gentleman had said that when the county associations had made up their requirements they were to submit them to the officer commanding the district. But what the Volunteers wanted was to be able to make a Return to the War Office, and they did not want to send their Returns through the general officer commanding the district. Why should not the right hon. Gentleman embody in his Bill the establishment of a department of the War Office to which all communications could be made? He ventured to say that such a department for the Territorial Army, with Sir Edward Ward at its had, would be found of great assistance. He X |