speculative force. Three or four times the best European troops, but it never the right hon. Gentleman had told them was contemplated to pit our Auxiliary that this was a speculation, that it could Forces against the picked battalions not come into full operation during of, say, the German Army. The this or the next Parliament, and that hon. Member must know that there successive Ministries would be required were many duties in war, such as keeping to see it properly carried out. If that open the lines of communication and was the view of the right hon Gentleman, garrisoning depots in India and the surely it would have been wiser policy Colonies which could be efficiently to have abstained from striking off carried out by auxiliary troops, freeing some of the best units at the beginning Regulars to go into the fighting line. of the scheme, and to have waited After all, there was surely something until he had matured his plans. Having in the fact that such an auxiliary force abolished those Regular troops, the as was contemplated must be some right hon. Gentleman came and told deterrent to a Foreign Power who conthe House that his scheme was little more than a speculation. He would look forward with great interest to a close examination of the measure introduced by the right hon. Gentleman when printed; but after listening to his speeches he regarded the embarking upon this re-organisation scheme with the gravest anxiety and apprehension. templated invasion of this country. He agreed with the hon. Member that the estimates which had been presented as to the probable cost of the force hardly represented what the cost would be if the force was to be effective. He was much impressed by the right hon. Member's appeal to the nation, and especially to the patriotism of country gentlemanthough these were not more patriotic than MR. GUEST (Cardiff District) said other classes of the community-but at that the noble lord had endeavoured to the same time he thought there was some plunge the House into an atmosphere truth in the suggestion that the War of considerable gloom, but he did not Secretary was trying to get his Territorial know that the attitude which the noble Army rather on the cheap. That was Member had taken up represented the clear, because the third battalions, which general opinion of the House. He were the chief innovation introduced by thought that it was the general feeling the right hon. Gentleman, would not really that the Secretary for War was to be belong to the second line, but to the first congratulated upon having introduced in line. They were to form training schools, this measure a conception which might and their main duties belonged to the first go a long way to solve many of the diffi- line. The 370,000 men which at present culties which had presented themselves to constituted the Auxiliary Forces would Army reformers in the past ten years. The thereby be reduced by the right hon. hon. Member for Chorley had drawn Gentleman's scheme to 313,000, so that attention to the fact that the Volunteers it seemed that the whole gain accruing and Militia were recruited from different to the Regular Army would be at the classes, and bad said that although many expense of the Auxiliary Forces. The parents would have no objection to Territorial Army would suffer both in allow their sons to join the Volunteers men and money. It was doubtful they would yet object to their enlisting whether the right hon. Gentleman was in the Militia. But the hon. Member had not over sanguine in appealing to the overlooked the fact that the class of men patriotism of the country with a closed who now joined the Militia would be in- fist as regarded money. In regard to the corporated in the third battalions, young Yeomanry force, he very much doubted fellows who were known as "corner boys,' whether the reduction in their pay would and who joined the Militia with a view not act injuriously upon it. Mr. Brodof afterwards going into the Regular rick first became alive to the possibiliArmy. The objection of the hon. Mem- ties of the Yeomanry force, on whom ber therefore did not apply to the greater the late Government put their money, part of the Territorial Army. The hon. with the result that they doubled Member's other argument was that the its strength, and more than doubled Auxiliary Forces would be unable to face its efficiency. There were, after all, Lord Balcarres. frontier 350,000 men, he did not think anybody could say that the force was insufficient for its defence. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would consider the points raised in regard to the expenditure on county associations, because he believed that, with all the goodwill in the world-and h thought there would be goodwill in regard to these county associations, and that even hon. Members who had criticised the scheme would be the first to lend themselves to forwarding the object in view-the scheme would fail unless a larger sum of money was devoted to it. He believed there was a great deal of good in the scheme which the Secretary of State had outlined. It would appeal to the country and to the emulation among counties which was, after all, an asset of our national life. He thought the scheme had a prospect of being a success, and he was not himself influenced by any of the gloomy apprehensions which disturbed the hon. Member for Chorley. But if the Minister for War was not able to devote more than £2,800,000 to the scheme it was almost certain to fail. Seeing that the right hon. Gentleman had so largely decreased the Regular Army, he asked him to see whether he could not devote a larger sum for the perfection of the scheme he had outlined. only two ways of raising a Terri- what smaller force than that would suffice torial Army in this country-by to meet our requirements for one year. compulsion and by inducement. He If we were able to put on the Indian did not mean to argue for compulsion, but he would point out the danger of its being necessary to resort to is if inducement failed. The right hon. Gentleman certainly expected to get his Territorial Army very inexpensively, the estimated cost per man of infantry being £6, and of cavalry £14, as against £21 which the Yeomanry cost at the present time. He welcomed the creation of the Territorial Army, but he maintained that it would be necessary to spend more money upon it. If that was to be done consistently with that economy to which most Members on that side of the House were pledged, it could be only obtained by effecting economies on the Regular Army. The discussions had proved conclusively that no economy on the Regular Army could be permanent which did not involve a reduction of the number of men who served with the colours. He gave the right hon. Gentleman the credit for economies effected by more careful organisation, but that was a minor matter. The question whether they were able to make a reduction in the numbers of the Regular Army must be answered by the consideration of the military problem which presented itself in regard to the frontier of India. He had never heard any Secretary for War or any member of the Defence Committee state what were the military requirements which general considerations necessitated in the event of a war on the frontier of India; but he would point out that under the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman they were in a much better position to judge as to the defence of India than they had been in recent years. By the scheme of the right hon. Gen leman we should not only have at first an expeditionary force of 160,000, but after six months a force of 260,000, to which were to be added the Indian and Colonial garrisons; making a total force of some 378,000 Regular troops, which could be put on the Indian frontier in the course of one year. That, of course, did not include the native army, which was 387,000 men. That was a very large number of men, and he supposed it was possible that a some SIR HOWARD VINCENT wished he could share the hon. Member's opinion with regard to the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman. No doubt it was the result of very great thought and careful labour, bu he doubted whether it would bear investigation when the Bill came to be printed. He was a member of the Esher Committee, and he thought it was absolutely necessary to point out that this scheme had never been brought before that Committee in its entirety, and it had not been mentioned to them, except in very general outline, that there was a desire on the part of the Secretary of State which everybody thought was extremely laudable, to promote county feeling with regard to the Army and the development of the jutant for life, and he often held the defence forces of the nation. These proposals were not consistent with his recollection of what passed in the Committee. He could not understand why, after the Secretary of State had chosen a Committee from all parts of the country as well as from the Auxiliary and Regular forces, he did not bring his scheme before them and obtain their advice upon it, before laying it before Parliament. It would have been advantageous to the right hon. Gentleman to have done so, because he would then have introduced a scheme with the approval of those who knew what they were talking about. Of as the case might be. The Voluncourse it was very difficult to criticise a teer force had derived immense Bill which they had not read, especially as benefit from the adjutants so appointed, the right hon. Gentleman said it would as a whole, although, of course, there had be of considerable length-in fact a hand- been exceptions, but as a rule the book of the law on the subject. But adjutants from the Regular Army had there were one or two matters to which rendered very great service to the he would like to make allusion. He Auxiliary Forces. As a rule they were admitted that the proposal for the keen young men who knew that the transfer of the debts of the Volunteer way in which they discharged their Corps from the National Debt Com- duties would be favourably reported missioners to the War Office was in upon, and he knew of cases in which many quarters viewed favourably. In these officers had been promoted to other quarters, however, it was viewed high rank in consequence of the way with considerable apprehension. That in which they had discharged their duties. was by corps who had been able to pay He regretted to hear the right hon. their way and had taken care that their Gentleman speak with some disparageliabilities should be on the basis of their ment of the services rendered by ability to meet them. There were many adjutants to commanding officers. There corps who owed a very small portion of might, of course, be some regiments the mortgage money, and it would be ex- in which the adjutants had run the ceedingly unfair if any policy was re- regiment, but as a whole he maintained sorted to by the War Office to compel that their services had been great as them to transfer the small remaining well as discreetly rendered. The right liability which existed and thereby part hon. Gentleman seemed to think that with their vested right in the freehold the adjutants did not perform purely or leasehold interest in the drill halls military duty, but the regulations prowhich they had erected. He thought hibited the adjutant from taking part that the right hon. Gentleman had said in the civil affairs of the force. The that this transfer was to be perfectly right hon. Gentleman proposed to withoptional on the part of the Volunteer draw that most valuable link between corps, and it was open to them to choose the Regular Army and the Territorial whether they adopted the provision or force. Such a step would be the greatest not. [Mr. BUCHANAN assented.] He was disaster that could possibly happen glad to see that the Financial Secretary to the force, and he entreated the right to the War Office assented to that and hon. Gentleman to reconsider his decision. to know that it would be carried into He had also spoken disparagingly of practice. Another matter to which he Volunteer commanding officers for remitwished to call attention was the ques- ting fines, suggesting at the same time that tion of adjutants. He was connected such punishments would be maintained by with the Volunteer force after leaving the county associations. Long experithe Army when the old system of ad- ence had convinced him that the most jutants was in force. Some retired popular commanding officers were those officer of the Army was appointed ad- who preserved the best discipline, and Sir Howard Vincent. any desire shown by a commanding | officers in the Volunteer force, and a officer to remit fines justly levied would deficit of 10,000 as regarded the Army as a meet with the extreme disapprobation whole. He warned the right hon. Gentleof the batallion and eventually lead man that any difficulty put in the way to its being broken up. Then comof a man taking up a commission in the pulsory camp duty every year was a Volunteer force meant disaster to that question of very great difficulty. The force. The abolition of the liability to predecessors of the right hon. Gentleman serve on juries had been advocated as an had attempted to carry out a similar inducement for men to join the forces, policy, but the provision had to be with- but he did not think that the right hon. drawn owing to its unfairness and the Gentleman would be able to obtain that detrimental effect it had upon Volunteer concession without great difficulty. When recruiting. By the right hon. Gentle- he (Sir H. Vincent) moved in that matter man's ill-considered scheme a great before Lord Halsbury the then Lord unsettlement had already been produced Chancellor would not listen to any among the Volunteers. The present such suggestion, but declared he would was the best recruiting time for the never consent to some of the most force. In the battalion he was connected intelligent of the community being with sometimes as many as twenty men absolved from jury duty. Those were presented themselves on a Monday night the very persons that were required on for medical inspection, with a view to juries. He was grateful to the Secrejoining. Those men were not there to-tary of State for War as the first Liberal night. Why? Because the Secretary of State had unsettled them by his scheme. They were no longer to be enrolled; they were to be enlisted men for four years. They were not to leave at less than three months notice, and the notice was not to be given to their commanding officer but to some county committee. In addition to that a man was to be fined up to £5 if he left before. He would know how much he was to be fined. He could go to his commanding officer and say, "Under what conditions can I leave immediately, as I am offered employment in Canada, or elsewhere." And in addition to that he was to be under the other onerous conditions set out by the right hon. Gentleman. How could they expect a father to permit his son to join the Volunteers under such circumstances when the boy had to earn his living, and when it might be necessary and essential for him to take up a berth, at a moment's notice, in another part of the country? Then, as regarded the officers, he did not hesitate to say that some of the best officers of the Volunteers came from the legal profession. But how was a young lawyer to undertake beforehand to say, the moment the first class of the Army Reserve was mobilised, that he was ready to throw his profession to the winds and go out for six months? It was absolutely impossible. The question of officers was a most serious matter. There was a deficit of 3,000 Minister who had frankly recognised the necessity of a Territorial Army, and he would willingly help him; but why did the right hon. Gentleman propose to abolish the Militia, the Yeomanry, and the Volunteers on a mere speculation? It would have been possible to frame some scheme which would have utilised existing materials, improved them, and incorporated them more with the Regular Army. Instead the Secretary for War had chosen to abolish those materials on a mere speculation as to whether he would get the men for his new Territorial Army. He feared the right hon. Gentleman would have great difficulty in getting the neces sary men; he wished it were not so. As regarded brigade and divisional organisation, he was heartily with the right hon. Gentleman, but he hoped he would not remove the adjutants who had rendered such splendid service, and appoint in their stead fourteen superannuated major-generals. *SIR W. EVANS GORDON (Tower Hamlets, Stepney) said the right hon. Gentleman had himself referred to hs scheme as a speculation or a gamble. They had heard of gambling with the food of the people, but this scheme presented itself to him as gambling with the safety of the nation. The debate had disclosed one important thing, namely, that this was a political and not a military gamble in any sense of the word. The right hon. Member for the Newport make the best arrangements you can." Division, had elicited the fact that the The officers were never in a position military advisers of the Government to say to the country that they obwere not responsible for the reduction of jected to a reduction of that kind. He the regular troops of the Army. Here for one was glad to know that the was a very important part of the scheme admission had at all events been made with which the experts disagreed, and by the right hon. Gentleman, that the rehe thought the House and the country duction of the regular troops was carried should take very grave note of the fact. out in face of the protest of the military He would like to point out the deplorable advisers of the Crown. ["No."] If that position which His Majesty's Government was not so, let the right hon. Gentleman military advisers occupied upon these correct him. Of course it had been prooccasions. Great schemes such as that vided by the Esher Commission that if the which the right hon. Gentleman had Army Council objected to any of these brought forward were foisted upon the schemes they could resign. But resigWar Office. The public and the House nation was an illusion; those gentlemen should know precisely how far the mili- could not resign; they had to make their tary advisers of the Crown were respon- career in the Army, and resignation sible for them. He remembered that meant f nancial ruin to them. The scheme when the six army corps scheme was of the right hon. Gentleman appeared brought forward, they were told that it to him to be entirely based upon “ifs,” had the undivided support of the mili- hypotheses, and hopes. Seventy-four tary advisers of the War Office. But battalions were to be created behind when the Royal Commission on the War the seventy-two pairs which already assembled and these gentlemen were frce existed. If they got the right men they to state their real opinion, they found might be of some service, but it all dethat these very gentlemen had from the pended upon that. As to the county very first considered the scheme as utterly associations if they were formed if it was unsuitable to the military requirements found that they were equal to the perof the country. If there were a Royal formance of the important duties which Commission now, and these distinguished were placed upon them, then the scheme soldiers were free to speak out, he might go through, but it all depended wondered whether they would be found upon that important "if." As to the Yeoto agree with the scheme brought for- manry, if they would consent to serve ward by the Secretary of State? He under the new conditions that part of did not believe that soldiers as soldiers the scheme might be successful. would endorse the scheme. It seeemd he would point out that only recently to him that the whole structure of the the Yeomanry had consented to serve on Army Council, the General Staff, and the erms that they were at present servthe Defence Committee so carefully ing under, and they had enormously imset up was in practice nothing but proved since they had responded to the a solemn farce. They had apparently call. Yet no sooner were they settled to register the opinions of the political down to those terms and become a really advisers of the Crown. Their voice as effective force, than the whole scheme military experts was never heard in the was upset again, and they were told country at all. But they had to take the that they would have to serve under difresponsibility of these schemes, and he ferent terms altogether and on different thought it most deplorable that they pay. It was all a pure gamble and should have no real opportunity of speculation, as the right hon. Gentleman telling the country what their opinion himself had called it, and he could only was, or of throwing the onus of ac- hope that it would not turn out disascepting the schemes upon the House trously for both the right hon. Gentleman of Commons, and removing it from and the country. They were told that their own shoulders. The Secretary the whole idea was based on the great of State went to them and said: principle of preparedness for war, but "It is the policy of the country to how would this great scheme work when reduce the Regular Army by so many put to that test? When the Army thousands, with that proviso you must was mobilised in 1899 it was found, Sir I. Evans Gordon. But |