war.

artillery was not only a thing familiar | thing except theology. He was quito to them for a long time, but it was part aware that the man who laid and served of the right hon. Gentleman's own war the guns must be highly trained, and organisation and always would be a part that the drivers must be men of a conBut the of it. The garrison Volunteer artillery siderable amount of training and of a took the place of the Regular garrison still greater amount of nerve. artillery when the latter went out for people who volunteered for field artillery No doubt it had a different kind work were of a class whose intelligence of gun, but not more difficult to use than was rarely got in the ordinary ranks of the field gun. The handling of heavy ord- the Army-the very pick of the Volunnance used in the garrison and naval for-teers, men whose pride it would be to show tresses involved great skill and capaci'y: but why should the House assume this non possumus attitude about the Volunteer artillery? He could only tell hon. Members that having come largely into contact with Volunteers in the last six months, there was no point on which they were more keen than to be allowed to try to make themselves into Volunteer

field artillery. So keen were they and so ready to put their backs into the business that he thought they would act wrongfully were they to deny them the opportunity.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR said he was anxious not to be misunderstood. He did not discourage nor desire to discourage the Volunteer officers. On the contrary, he desired to encourage them; but when they had got their division at its proper amount of artillery and Volunteers they had not a thoroughly effective force, and they must stiffen it up with Regular artillery as well.

MR. HALDANE said he did not assume that the Volunteer field artillery would turn out to be an effective force in the sense that Regular artillery was effective, but he thought that the experiment was worth making in order to procure a great reservoir of trained artillerymen to help in a great emergency. The force might become better than experts seemed to expect. They had after the divisions had gone out an enormous number of field guns of the most modern type for training, so that there would not be really a case of improvisation. If they had a number of highly trained men it did not take them so long to train in the use of the field guns with which their officers had been trained in the artillery training schools and which would be there in case of necessity. As to the question of the artillery there was more superstition than about any

that they were quite equal to Regulars. All he asked was that a trial should be given to the experiment. It would be a have a chance of being trained in all fine thing that the new second line should At any rate, they would be the better for organising the proposed force.

arms.

MR. ARTHUR LEE (Hampshire, Farcham) asked whether the guns would be used only for training purposes or whether they would have to fight superior modern

guns.

MR. HALDANE said he should hope the contingency of Volunteer artillerymen having to fight would not arise; but if they had, these guns, turned into quickfirers, would be excellent weapons, though perhaps 1,000 yards shorter in range than modern field artillery. But there was a reserve of the most modern kind of gun in the country, which would not be used for the training batteries, but which, with very little additional training, these Volunteer artillerists could use. The questions of the right hon. Gentleman as to notice to leave the Volunteers and as to embodiment put him in a dilemma; because his best answer would be to read the terms of a document in his box; but he must keep that till Monday. He could only say that they had worked out the matter with decrease of horses, that was due to the abolition of three field artillery depots, and to the discovery that cne mounted infantry school supplied all that they wanted for the necessaries which the General Staff had indicated. They had not reduced three batteries; they had depots, not batteries. As to the unsuitablity of the old depots for the new third battalions, trained at once. the whole of the 500 or 600 men on the roll would not be time. There would Normally there would be 150 recruits at he depot at a certainly have to be an organisation at the War Office for the Home Army. On

care.

As to the

on.

the whole, he thought they might their relations with employers. [Cries congratulate themselves on the way in of "Oh!"] Hon. Members might murwhich this discussion had been carried mur, but they would find out the truth There had been an obvious desire to of it. The great trade organisations find a solution to a very difficult and were jealous of outside interference, and thorny problem. He could only say for rightly so. They made their own arrangehimself that he would be satisfied to ments between employers and themselves contribute in some degree to that and they would strongly resent any solution. But it was a matter which outside authority interfering as to the only time and experience could determine, relationship between them and the emand that was one of the things that made ployers. A serious point which had been them especially anxious that the disposi- referred to by the right hon. Gentleman tion to keep this thing out of uneces- had reference to the mobilisation for a sary controversy should be maintained. period of six months on the outbreak *MR. KEIR HARDIE (Merthyr Tydvil) of war. At the end of the first month, said the question raised by the new as he understood, the Volunteer, so-called, proposals of the Government with regard was to be invited to enlist for service to the Army and the Auxiliary Forces had abroad. That was another way of saying been under the consideration of the that those called would be expected to Members of the Party on this side of enlist for service abroad. One of the the House to which he belonged. It reasons that he objected to the Territorial would be admitted that they involved Army was because it was not an honest issues of very serious import to the facing of the situation. These men working classes of the country. The were to be trained ostensibly for home creation of an Army-for that was what defence, but, as he understood the it practically amounted to-of over scheme, they were intended in the main 500,000 trained men, taking the three to supply drafts for the Army abroad in forces together, could not be regarded as time of war. If that were so, it would a light matter, especially when they be better to make that clear from the remembered what the proposals involved. outset. One of the difficulties in the There were one or two points with respect way of carrying out the proposals would to which he would like to have be that men who had no objection to replies from the Secretary of State for undergoing drill as Volunteers to train War. The right hon. Gentleman had and equip them for the defence of the not dealt with any one of them, and country against an invader would not therefore he would be content to wait desire to be placed in a position where until Monday, when he hoped to hear they would be practically compelled a fuller explanation. One of the points to serve abroad in the event of their to which he referred was the position of services being required when war broke workmen who had joined the Volunteers. out. That was a very serious blot on the At the present time it was often found proposals of the War Office. One of the difficult, especially in the case of skilled other functions that the county military artisans, to obtain the necessary leave associations had to perform was to look to attend drills, but if a certain number after the rights and interests of timeof drills were to be compulsory each year expired men and reservists. In that there in addition to a week or a fortnight in was the dangerous tendency of giving camp or in depot that would very much preferential treatment to men who had increase the difficulty of artisans enlisting served in the Army. If the proposed in the Volunteer force. He knew that scheme became law that tendency would the county military associations were be very largely increased. The whole expected in some way or another to tendency was towards creating the imnegotiate with employers so as to over-pression that the man who did not come this difficulty. Might he say that become a soldier was to be a marked the leaders of the working classes would man and receive less fair treatment resent most strenuously any attempt in seeking employment than the man on the part of these county associations, who did become a soldier. ["No."] which would be mostly military organ- The Labour Members protested against isations, to come between them and that. Let them not punish a man Mr. Haldane.

The

who desired to serve his country at university training. Appointments home and honestly work in helping to which a few years ago were given to create wealth. As to the proposals workmen because they had practical for training officers, he wished to point experience were barred against them. out that the official positions in the A university education was now regarded Army were reserved for the sons of the as a sina qua non and practical experience rich and well-to-do. The ordinary work- was regarded as of little or no value. The man who joined the Army had practically Labour representatives viewed that posino chance of rising into official rank. tion with considerable apprehension. The cost of the officers' mess made it If the universities and public schools practically impossible for a man who were to be used as seed-plots on which had not a father with a long purse to raise officers for the Army, that was behind him to become an officer and but a short step to the use of the public live up to his position. Special arrange- elementary schools in the same way to ments were to be made for the training train common soldiers for the Army. It of officers from amongst the ranks of the had been said that if this scheme failed young men attending the universities he position would be no worse than at and great public schools. But it was an the present time. He did not hold that with open secret that the sons of the working opinion. He was inclined to agree classes did not go to universities or great The Times, which he did not often do, public schools. If they did so it was that the scheme could not succeed withwith a desire to learn, and they were out the element of compulsion. They so engrossed in their studies that they knew that for several years past many had not time to prepare to be soldiers. able and distinguished men, headed by Whatever the intention might be the Lord Roberts, had been advocating a proposals would result in the training thinly veiled scheme of conscription of officers from the ranks of the rich as the only solution of the diffiand well-to-do to the practical exclusion culties connected with defence. of the capable sons of the working proposal of the Secretary for War he which regarded as the framework on such a scheme would be built if the new plan failed. The next short and easy step would be some form of compulsory military service. [Cries of "No, no."] Every hon. Member was entitled to his own opinion on these points; but for his part he should resist with all his power any attempt to impose compulsory military service on the people of this country. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition had *MR. KEIR HARDIE said that these said that no Government would enter men must have served with the colours into war with a light heart. The exbefore having the opportunity of becom- perience of the last ten years did not ing officers, but his point was that the bear that out. They were proposing to universities and the big public schools create a great military force ostensibly men who had not served with the colours for the defence of this country and its were to be trained as officers. That was possessions abroad; but in the hands preferential treatment. It was part of of some unscrupulous statesman the the whole system with which they were machines would be there for waging war familiar, that the working classes were on slight provocation, as war was waged to be the hewers of wood and the drawers in the Transvaal within the last few years. o."] He hoped that of water not only in the industrial sphere [Cries of "No, no.' but in the military and civil service hon. Gentlemen were not going to say spheres. Almost every avenue through now that they believed there was the which the sons of the working classes slightest justification for going to war could rise into higher positions was being with the Transvaal. [Cries of dissent, closed against them, unless they had a and "Hear, hear!"]Well, he was

classes.

MR. HALDANE said that there was a reference to the point raised by the hon. Member in the Report of the Committee. That Committee recommended that a limited number of warrant officers and non-commissioned officers who had served a certain period with the colours and were still in the prime of life should be placed on the list for commissions.

sorry for their intelligence. During the | allow him to say so, the conditions offered war fever there might have been excuses under the new scheme might very much for unthinking people to be of that reduce the number of recruits who now opinion, but nowadays, when they were came forward. He wished to repeat that able to look back calmly on the alleged the supply depended upon the inducefacts, it was difficult to believe that any- ment offered. The hon. Gentleman had one could justify that war. However, his gone on to illustrate his argument with point was that the creation of the pro- a beautiful picture of a crystal fountain posed great Army was a danger to the of pure water which bubbled out of the cause of the people. At the forthcoming ground, representing the supply of Hague Conference the question of the healthy, well-grown young men available reduction of armaments was to be brought as recruits and begged them to draw on up, and was the representative of this this supply as it came from the earth in country to go to that Conference with a a natural condition and not to apply a brand new scheme for increasing its mili- pump which would soil the purity and tary forces? That would not be an en- produce an increased flow, but of muddy water. Now this would be true if the couragement to other countries to reduce their armaments by sea whole supply of healthy, well-grown and land. Therefore his personal feeling was one the required age were to pass into the young men who every year arrived at of strong suspicion that by the proposed Army. But that was not true. By far scheme they were strengthening the mili- the greater number passed at once into tary spirit of the country and thereby industrial life and only a small proportion increasing the risk of future wars and came into the Army as recruits. Theremaking social reforms more difficult. fore, instead of accepting the hon. Member's illustration of bubbling spring, he would say rather the true illustration would be this. In the neighbourhood of Salisbury Plain, a district not altogether unknown to the military authorities, there were beautifully clear rivers from which a certain quantity of water was withdrawn at given points to irrigate the water meadows. The amount of water so withdrawn was regulated by the requirements of those water meadows, and if the existing supply was insufficient it could always be increased by some additional expense which would speedily bring all the water required to the water meadow requiring it. So also with recruits. Such were the arguments of the hon. Member. That was, however, only one illustration in regard to the working of the scheme. He wished at once to say with regard to the scheme generally that he entirely agreed with a great deal of what the Secretary for War wished to obtain, and the way in which he wished to obtain it. For instance, with regard to his plan of decentralisation, he approved of the idea that, so far as possible, the person responsible for spending the money should spend it in his own way. It was absurd that in former days there had to be a long correspondence in regard to some small requirement for a regiment, and he had always thought that it was desirable that the commanding officer of a

*MR. MEYSEY-THOMPSON (Staffordshire, Handsworth) said he had l'stened with great attention to the many excellent speeches this afternoon, and he should like to offer to the Under-Secretary for the Colonies his congratulations on his speech which was delivered with the same fluency, the same ingenuity, and the same absolute unsoundness of argument for which his speeches were invariably distinguished. He would only take one instance. The hon. Member stated that the number of recruits annually available for the British Army of a good class, i.e., well-grown, healthy young men, was about 23,000 to 25,000, and that the principle on which we must proceed in recruiting was to make up our minds that this was the fixed available supply by which we must abide instead of considering the requirements of the Army and endeavouring to obtain that supply. He begged leave to differ entirely with the hon. Member, and he thought that he could prove that this argument was radically unsound. The supply of recruits was not fixed, but depended upon the inducements offered to recruits to join the different branches of the service. Would anyone in this House tell him that if the War Office offered £1 per day they could not get all the recruits they wished for Per contra, if the Secretary for War would Mr. Keir Hardie.

66

regiment should be left to spend the money devoted to it as he thought desirable. If he spent the money badly, say in a cavalry regiment, his regiment would be inspected, and he would be dropped on.' He knew what that kind of correspondence meant, and remembered the old story in respect to forage for a particular horse. In the Crimean War, red tape was rampant, and it was reported that the officer commanding at Tomski Bridge applied for forage for his horse. This application passed through so many hands that three weeks elapsed before a reply authorising the issue of forage was received. On sending it to the quartermaster, the officer was informed that a new Army order which had come out since the application was first made rendered it impossible for him to comply with the requisition. The officer was less annoyed at this refusal than might have been expected as the horse had meanwhile died. He was glad to see that the Secretary for War recognised that the commanding officer of the unit should have the control of the money which was to be spent in maintaining that unit. What he had to say in connection with the scheme was that although it was excellent in some respects it was not entirely new and that the system which it was proposed to establish had been in force before the Secretary for War came into office, and he wished to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on being above availing himself of the good things which were left behind them by his predecessors. As a whole the scheme was a very attractive one.

It was

was

matter a

say that of course that was so, as no infantry battalion had any cavalry. Infan ry battalions were dependent on a different branch of the service, viz., cavalry; the Militia was dependent on a different branch of the service, viz., Yeomanry. As to the latter force, it in which he had a special interest. What were the conditions of recruiting in the Yeomanry, and under this scheme how were recruits to be obtained? How had they been obtained in the past? It was due partly to the high rate of pay, 5s. 6d. a day, and in a great degree to the influence of the officers. By this scheme both those sources of inducement would be removed. No doubt the pay of 5s. 6d. a day sounded a great deal, but it must be remembered that the members of the Yeomanry were usually farmers, blacksmiths, shopkeepers and others of that class, and if they went out for training they must find substitutes to do their work and pay them. If the War Office cut down their pay they were placing a hardship on these men and ran the risk of not obtaining any further recruits. Then as to the influence of the officers in obtaining recruits; it appeared that under this scheme the Secretary of State wished to get the officers to give up more time for camp and do more than they did at present in the way of the training of officers. Speaking for himself, he could not make it possible to give up more time than he did at present. As it was he gave up a great deal of time, and every officer in the House who commanded a regiment or squadron of Yeomanry would tell them that the duties in connection with it took up a great deal of time if the work was to be done efficiently. If the War Office was going to put a greater tax on the officers they would drive out many of them, and thus their influence as a body for recruiting pur

a tremendous scheme for a national Army, a territorial Army under which the people were to come out to defend their own country. He asked himself, however, whether it was not a policy of perfection? Would it succeed and could they under it get an Army which would be sufficiently large and efficient to defend the country in the event of a great war? He agreed with the right hon. Gentle- poses would be lessened, and it must be borne in mind, as he had said, man that in the Army they should that that influence was a great help in get rid of "show" servants, but if

they got rid of them it migh make recruiting. As to the usefulness of the they got rid of them it migh make Yeomanry in the late war, he did the conditions of service unattractive, not know what the country would and they might find a difficulty in getting servants at all. As to the fact that the Militia had, as the right hon. Gentleman said, no cavalry, he would be inclined to

have done without them, because everybody admitted that they were of the greatest use. It was said that in two

or

three years excellent Yeomanry