was

himself did not hesitate to say that which it would have given to the work the figures given by the right hon. of the Commission they had to look Gentleman in the way he presented them about for outside evidence, which conwere grossly misleading-he did not say sisted of those ugly rumours to which he intentionally, but undoubtedly mislead- had referred. The consequence ing. The Prime Minister said that that having no direct evidence, and the Progressives were supported by knowing that His Majesty's Ministers 17,694 votes and that they gained possessed that direct evidence, and twenty-one seats; that the Nation- would not allow them to see it, they alists, Independents, and Labour men were naturally inclined to believe and other classes of British non-Progressives had 19,788 votes, or 2,000 more than the Progressives, and the Het Volk had 23,769 votes. He quite agreed that those figures corresponded with the accounts published in South Africa and in The Times newspaper. So far his figures were accurate, but he then went on to analyse those figures. To begin with, the right hon. Gentleman referred to the fact that the Nationalist, Independent, and Labour Parties were non-Progressive and British, but he did not draw attention to the fact that six Nationalists were in Party alliance with

*MR. SPEAKER: I do not see how this question is relevant to the Report of the Committee? The hon. Member is going rather beyond the Vote now before the House.

*MR. COURTHOPE said, with great deference, that the figures given by the Prime Minister were the only light they had at all on the result of the work done by the Committee.

*MR. SPEAKER: They do not seem to me to be strictly relevant to the question of the publication of the Report. The hon. Member must confine himself to that.

*MR. COURTHOPE said he hoped that some other opportunity would occur when he might criticise the misleading nature of those figures. As to publication, surely the Report must naturally fall more or less into two parts. It dealt with two Colonies. Could not the Report so far as it dealt with the Transvaal be published and given to the House? The objection that was alleged to its publication had disappeared altogether, and in the absence of the publication of the Report and of the direct testimony Mr. Courthope.

the indirect circumstantial evidence and to come to the conclusion which everything substantial pointed to, viz., that the report of the Commission was adverse to the action which His Majesty's Government had taken; in other words, that His Majesty's Ministers had made up their minds as to their course of action before that Report was received, and that the sending out of the Commission was simply a waste of money. He hoped the Prime Minister would see his way even now to allow so much of that Report as referred to the Transvaal, if it could be divided, to be laid on the Table so as to do away with the doubts which certainly existed. There was one other point. He noticed the list of Commissions not specifically provided for only accounted for £11,800 out of £33,037-just over one-third-and he thought the House was entitled to know where the other £22,000 had gone. There was no mention of it in the Supplementary Estimates nor in the original Estimates of last year, so that they did not in the least know where the money had gone. Did it include the expenses of Mr. Bucknill, for instance ? Did it include the expenses of the two Commissioners who met the French Commissioners to discuss the New Hebrides Convention? He thought the House should press for some information as to the expenditure of this £22,000 about which nothing was said in any document which had been given to the House.

THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN, Stirling Burghs): The imagination of hon. Members opposite has led them so completely into the wilderness that I think it is only right that I should say a word in order to calm their fears and dispel their delusions. They have discovered a natural phenomenon which I believe Lord Westbury called a nidus equinus. There

The

is no foundation whatever for the sus in order that we might by some dreadful
picions and fears which have been heard hocus-pocus, like a wizard concocting a
of from the hon. Member for Rye. The draught with which to poison the new
Committee was sent out to South Africa State in South Africa, deal with it in
in order that the Government should some horrible manner. There was no idea
acquire at first hand through them of the sort; and, as I have said, as to the
a better knowledge of the actual state of main design of which we are suspected-
affairs in South Africa than they could that of gerrymandering-the Constitution
acquire in any other way. The Govern- of the Transvaal is as the Committee
ment chose for the Committee impartial, recommended that it should be, without
sensible, level-headed men not likely to interference from London at all.
be led away by enthusiasm in one direc- whole thing is a delusion; and, really,
tion or another.
I would invite hon. Members to get hold
They fulfilled their
of something more bodily and tangible
purpose admirably, and the Government
and not invent hobgoblins with which to
acted in almost every particular on their
frighten people. There is not any truth.
recommendations. I might almost leave
at all in the idea that the Government
out the word "almost." Except that
have nefariously either departed from, or
there may be some very small things dealt in some other way with, this Report.
in which a variation was made, in all Having said this, and adhering to the
important matters; for instance, on the opinion, which is as strong with me now
crucial point of the distribution of seats as it was at the time, that it would not
in the Legislative Assembly, the be judicious to make it an absolutely
Constitution rests on the basis of public document, I do not know that I
the recommendations of the Committee.
The hon. Member opposite spoke of evi-
dence not being placed before the House
of Commons and the country. There was
no evidence. There was no appendix to
the Blue-book. The members of that
Committee sometimes sent private letters
to say how they were getting on, and
then in their Report they gave a summary
of their experiences, of what they had
discovered as to the strength of Parties,
and in some instances, if I remember
rightly, of a change of disposition of
Parties which they had discovered in the
course of their stay in South Africa.
They were in intimate relations with all
the leading members of these Parties.
They got information from them as to
their desire, and the Report is an embodi-
ment of all those pieces of information.
When we came to look at the Report, which
was an admirable document, we found
that it contained a great deal that we
thought it might not prove judicious to
publish their commentaries upon Parties
in South Africa, the commentaries of the
Parties in South Africa on each other.
There was a great deal of information in
it that had been given confidentially, and
also it was of a kind which had possibili-
ties of mischief in the future if the docu-
ment had become public. That was the
sole reason for keeping it private. It
has been referred to as if we kept it back Gentleman opposite.
VOL. CLXX. [FOURTH SERIES.]
3 G

compromise the dignity of the Govern-
ment too much if I say that I do not see
any reason whatever why, for instance,
the late Secretary of State for the
Colonies should not see the Report.
It would do no harm for him to see it-
not in the least. I do not know that it
is not putting the function upon him that
perhaps he ought not to assume of
standing in the room of all his colleagues
and followers and pronouncing a judgment
on this matter, as it were, in their name.
But that at least would explain what I
thought, and still think, from my re-
collection of what is now a somewhat
old story, was the well-founded fear we
had as to the publication of a confidential
Report, the value of which was that it did
deal freely and frankly with the situation,
and did report freely and frankly what
people said to each other.
There might

not have been anything very terrible in
it; but at the same time it was dangerous
and explosive matter, and might prove
so even in the future after the Constitution
had been granted--that was the idea we
had. I think it was the right idea.
We will adhere to the principle of
keeping it a private document; but I
am perfectly willing that the right hon.
Gentleman should see it; and I feel
certain that he will be able to dispose of
the exaggerated ideas with regard to it
which have pervaded the minds of hon.

SIR GILBERT PARKER: Will the SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: right hon. Gentleman say something I wish to thank the right hon. Gentleman about land settlement ? for the tone of his speech regarding myself. The declination of the offer is in

SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: accordance with my own instinct, but That is included.

a daily paper that Royal Commissions | Fisheries Board.
were a more or less easy way of shelving a
question. That was what caused him
now to address the House. Speaking
on behalf of every Welsh Member
he asked for an assurance from the
Government that they were not in-
stituting an inquiry for the purpose
of shelving this great and important
question in the Principality. If such
was the Government's intention, he
warned them that, as they met with
obstruction from the Irish Benches, they
would not escape it from the Welsh.
They believed their cause had been recog-
nised as true and just throughout Wales.
For twenty years at least they had dis-
cussed it. Now they wanted a guarantee
from the Government such as had been
given to the Nationalists. If there was
one question more than another which
touched the hearts of Welshmen it was
this. He called upon the Government,
therefore, to carry out their promises with
regard to the disestablishment of the
Welsh Church.

*MR. MORTON (Sutherland) said he would have preferred to raise the questions he was about to bring to the attention of the House in Committee, but owing to the closure there was not time. He did not object to the expenditure in connection with South Africa, as he thought the result had been well worth the money, but he would like to associate himself with hon. Members representing Wales in condemning the expenditure for the Welsh Church Commission. The item was wasteful and unnecessary. It would, however, be wrong to accuse the Government of an attempt to shelve questions in this way, because, as everybody knew, all these questions could not be settled in a session or two. He agreed that all the information that could be obtained with regard to the Welsh question had been obtained over and over again. With regard to the Congested Districts (Ireland) Commission he would like to know what that Commission had been doing, the names of the Commissioners, how they had been employed, and what amount of money they had had out of it. He also wished to know whether, as he had gathered from the newspapers they had, this Commission had taken away the Chairman of the Scottish

He did not believe in a public official's being taken away from his duties in that way. The Chairman of the Fisheries Board for Scotland had been taken away and the trawlers, both British and foreign, had been doing just as they liked. The House had a right to some explanation on that point. It was an undoubted fact that most Royal Commissions were appointed partly for the purpose of shelving questions and partly in order to find occupation for gentlemen who might otherwise get into mischief and to whom the fees they obtained came in very handy. He would remind the House that the money did not belong to the Government but to the people of the country, and it was not for the Government to expend it without good reason. That was, he knew, at difficult thing for Governments to appreciate. They were liberal in increasing salaries and in appointing Royal Commissioners, but in doing that they prevented the money being used for some useful purpose. Having regard to the pledges they had made he urged the Government not to allow money required for other purposes to be wasted on Royal The Prime Minister had Commissions. pledged himself and the Liberal Party "to colonise our own country" and he (Mr. Morton) claimed that some of this money should have been allotted to Sutherlandshire for piers, roads, and other means of communication to enable the people to earn a decent living and to prevent depopulation. He hoped the Government would give him the fullest information as to the Congested Districts (Ireland) Commission so that he could see for himself whether the money had been properly spent or not.

MR. MOORE (Armagh, N.) said the question with which the Welsh Church Commission was appointed to deal was perhaps the most burning question in Wales at the present moment, and. that being so he thought the House ought to be satisfied that the Commission was doing the work it was expected to do in a legal and legitimate way. His objection to the whole business was that, there being an acute question in Wales as regarded the Church, a Commission was appointed to consider it, and the whole weight of responsibility for

were ap

arriving at a proper decision in the question they had taken the best course question was vested in a Lord Justice to that end, for he believed that a new and the other Commissioners appointed Commission would have to be appointed. with him. It would be a most unfortu- It was illegal and arbitrary procedure nate thing in the history of Commissions for the Commission to call in outsiders if what had been done in the case of to advise them as to their course of the Welsh Church Commission were made conduct or to widen the scope of the a precedent for other Commissions. It inquiry in any shape or form. It was was common knowledge that with regard unfortunate that the two gentlemen conto that Commission there had been a cerned had been consulted, for that would difference of opinion between the Chair- certainly not make the Commissioners' man and some of his colleagues. The Report more popular. If the matter went House would remember that under the to a division he would oppose the Vote. terms of the Commission it was the Chairman and his colleagues who had to decide all matters of difference which arose within their competence. It would be a very unfortunate thing if any precedent were laid down that if a difference arose it should be submitted to arbitrators, however distinguished, and that they should assist the Commission to arrive at a conclusion which it was not only their right but their duty to do for themselves. He would say nothing against the distinguished gentlemen who had been brought in to advise the Commission inside its own jurisdiction. He would like to know however, if the subjects had been submitted to these eminent outsiders in their capacity as politicians or as lawyers? It seemed a very extraordinary thing that gentlemen not in the Commission and who had not heard the evidence should be brought in to advise the Commission as to the course they should take on the evidence. The President of the Board of Trade was a politician rather than a lawyer. The Commisison was appointed to report on the evidence brought before it, and if the President of the Board of Trade was necessary to enable them to arrive at those conclusions he should have been appointed a member of the Commission. If the Commissioners could not agree they should resign or by a majority decide what their proper course was. There was neither precedent nor principle of law to support them in calling!

to their aid outsiders, however distinguished. Such action would cer tainly tend to rob the Report of a good deal of its importance, and lay it open to considerable attack, because it would at once be said that it was not the Report of the Commission. If the Government wanted to shelve the Mr. Moore.

SIR ALFRED THOMAS (Glamorganshire, E.) said he sympathised with those hon. Members who prehensive that the Commission had been appointed in order to shelve the question of the Welsh Church. He did not understand that that was the object at all. It had been said that the Commission had been appointed to consider whether disestablishment was to take place or not. But the Welsh nation had settled that matter for themselves long ago. At the last general election every Welsh Member pledged himself to disestablishment. He believed that, as the Prime Minister had already declared, at the very earliest opportunity a measure was to be brought in on the question, whatever might be the findings of the Commission or whenever they might come to those findings. It would be a good deal better for hon. Members to allow the Commissioners to settle their business for themselves, and to call in whom they liked. The Commissioners were well able to manage their own affairs. For his own part he would have preferred that the terms of reference had not been so wide. No doubt it was necessary to have a Commission to make a report as to the temporalities of the Church and other matters. He trusted that the question would come up next year for final discussion and settlement.

CAPTAIN CRAIG (Down, E.) wished in the first place for an explanation of a difference of about £9,000 in respect of the expenses of Commissions. The various Commissions named totalled £11,800, leaving nearly £9,000 unaccounted for. He thought that in the preparation of this particular item a little care might have been exercised to show what was the cost