o'clock is a failure? I put that question ture and Fishing), Shipping, and Manuto the Leader of the House. factures: Mr. Charles Nicholson, Mr. Manfield, and Mr. Crombie; and had appointed in substitution: Dr. Pollard, Mr. Rogers, and Mr. James Murray. Sir WILLIAM BRAMPTON GURDON further reported from the Committee; That they had added to the Standing Committee on Trade (including Agriculture and Fishing), Shipping and Manufactures, the following fifteen Members in respect of the Education Acts Amendment Bill: Mr. Walter Rea, Mr. Frederick Edwin Smith, Mr. Masterman, Mr. Parker, Mr. Rees, Mr. Trevelyan, Mr. Lough, Mr. Leif Jones, Mr. Williamson, Mr. Talbot, Sir Berkeley Sheffield, Mr. Butcher, Mr. Ellis Davies, Mr. Richardson, and Sir Edwin Cornwall. Reports to lie upon the Table. | BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY). Motion made and Question put, "That the Proceedings on the Business of Supply, if under discussion when the Business is postponed this day, be resumed and proceeded with, though opposed, after the interruption of Business."-(Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman.) 82. AYES. Black, Arthur W. The House divided:-Ayes, 318; Noes, (Division List No. 40.) Brooke, Stopford Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S.Geo. Carr-Gomm, H. W. Bethell,SirJ. H.(Essex, Romf'rd Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Colonel Lockwood. Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight › Churchill, Winston Spencer Clarke, C. Goddard Cleland, J. W. Clough, William Clynes, J. R. Coats, Sir T. Glen(Renfrew, W.) Cobbold, Felix Thornley Cogan, Denis J. Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Corbett, C.H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Dalziel, James Henry Dillon, John Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward Ferguson, R. C. Munro Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Fuller, John Michael F. Gardner, Col. Alan(Hereford,S. Ginnell, L. Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John Goddard, Daniel Ford Gooch, George Peabody Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Halpin, J. Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) Harvey, W. E(Derbyshire, N. E. Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Hayden, John Patrick Hazel, Dr. A. E. Hedges, A. Paget Herbert, T, Arnold (Wycombe) Hobart, Sir Robert Hodge, John Hogan, Michael Holland, Sir William Henry Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Idris, T. H. W. Jacoby, Sir James Alfred Jardine, Sir J. Johnson, John (Gateshead) Jones, Leif (Appleby) Kekewich, Sir George Kelley, George D. Kennedy, Vincent Paul Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster Law. Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) Lever, W. H.(Cheshire, Wirral) Lupton, Arnold Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) Meehan, Patrick A. Mond, A. Money, L. G. Chiozza Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Nicholls, George Norton, Capt. Cecil William O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) O'Grady, J. (Supply , Power, Patrick Joseph Pullar, Sir Robert Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Rickett, J. Compton Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Robson, Sir William Snowdon Runciman, Walter Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Seaverns, J. H. Shackleton, David James Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim,S.) Soames, Arthur Wellesley Stanger, H. Y. Stanley, Hn A. Lyulph(Chesh.) Strachey, Sir Edward Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) Torrance, Sir A. M. O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N. Trevelyan, Charles Philips O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Palmer, Sir Charles Mark Pearce, William (Limehouse) Toulmin, George Verney, F. W. Vivian, Henry Wadsworth, J. Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.) Balfour, Rt HnA.J(City Lond.) Cavendish, Rt. Hon Victor C. W. Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim, S. White, Luke (York, E. R.) Williams, J. (Glamorgan) Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) NOES. Faber, George Denison (York) Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Forster, Henry William Hunt, Rowland Kennaway, Rt. Hon Sir John H. Lockwood Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col,A,R, SUPPLY [26TH FEBRUARY] REPORT. Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate [6th March] on Amendment to Second Resolution, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907, for the Salaries and other Expenses of Temporary Commissions, Committees, and Special Inquiries." Which Amendment was Wilson, J. W.(Worcestersh. N.) Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) | Young, Samuel TELLERS FOR THE AYES-Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease. Mildmay, Francis Bingham Nicholson, Wm.G. (Petersfield) Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Talbot, Rt. HnJ.G. (Oxf'dUniv. Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard Walrond, Hon. Lionel Willoughby de Eresby, Lord Younger, George TELLERS FOR THE NOES-Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Lord Balearres. Committee, owing to the operation of the Closure, upon which he desired to say a few words. This Vote included a sum of money for the Poor Law Commission. That Commission, appointed to consider a large variety of subjects, not only had been sitting for some time, but, as he understood, was likely to continue sitting for some time to come. He wished to know whether the Government proposed to postpone any attempt to deal with questions affecting the administration of the Poor Law, the unemployed, and so on, until the Report of the "To leave out '£10,000," and insert Commission was laid upon the Table; or ' £9,000.' "—(Mr. Dillon.) Question again proposed, "That £10,000' stand part of the said Resolution.' LORD ROBERT CECIL (Marylebone, E.) said he did not propose to detain the House at any length, but there was one question which he was unable to raise in whether they were going to suggest to the Commission that they should make some interim Report in order that the Government might be enabled to deal with some of the minor questions quite apart from the bigger problems. problems. Certain small reforms had been suggested which he could not help feeling would be of great value if means could be found of carrying them out. There Central Division of Sheffield, to inquire was, for instance, the difficulty of trans- into various important matters in referring labour from one part of the spect to the new Constitutions in country to another. It constantly South Africa, especially the social conhappened that there was an immense demand for labour in one part of the country, a demand so great that the local industries of the district were expiring for want of labour, whilst at the same time, in another part of the country, there was a vast excess of labour and people were seeking employment and unable to find it. At the present time Lancashire was in a difficulty owing to lack of labour, while in London there was an excess. Would the Government hold out hope that they would be able to deal with that kind of question before the Commission reported, or that they would hasten the Report? There were other questions that might be dealt with relating to the aged poor and children, and the like-questions which did not touch the great controversial matters, but which, nevertheless, the Government ought to deal with. He would also be glad to know whether the Government had any idea of how long it In dition of the populations. No doubt the Report contained matters of great interest with which the House ought to be acquainted. But the Prime Minister had said that the Ridgeway Report was necessarily condefintial, and he doubted whether the documents ought to be laid on the Table. The Committee came back on the 23rd July, and the right hon. Gentleman was asked by the right hon. Member for St. George's, Hanover Square, when he intended to lay the Report on the Table, and again the right hon. Gentleman said that the Report was necessarily of a confidential character and would not be laid on the Table. The only apparent reason for the changed attitude of the Government was that the Report did not support their views with regard to the new Constitution of the Colonies, and that therefore the Government thought the only way out of the difficulty would be to keep it absolutely secret. November the Prime Minister was again asked when he proposed to lay the Paper on the Table, and again the reply was that the Committee sent to South Africa was essentially of a confidential nature, and, that being so, the Government did not propose to consider the publication of the Report until after the new Constitutions had been granted. The House, therefore, had not only been compelled MR. ASHLEY (Lancashire, Black- to consider the new Constitution of the pool) said he wished to draw the atten- Transvaal without seeing the Report, tion of the Government to the nonbut they would also have to consider this production of the Report of the West year the question of the new ConstituRidgeway Committee, and he regretted tion of the Orange River Colony under that the Under-Secretary, or someone the same conditions. After that, the representing the Government, was not Government were going to consider in the House to answer him. The whether or not they would publish the House was asked to vote money for Report. He thought the Government a Committee of which they were not were treating the House rather cavaallowed to see the Report. How lierly in the matter. On 31st July was it possible for the House, under last year, when the debate on the Transthose circumstances, to say whether the vaal Constitution was proceeding in money was properly spent? Their chief another place, Lord Lansdowne asked duty was to prevent the waste of public Lord Ripon a question with reference monev. But how were they to do that to a persistent rumour of so widespread if they were not allowed to see a character that he could not disregard the result of the investigation? This Committee was appointed, at the request of the hon. Member for the would be before the Commission reported. It was a a very able Commission, and one in which they had every confidence; but it had now been consider ing the question for one year, and it had been said it might sit for another two before it reported. Therefore he hoped the Government would consider these observations in a sympathetic spirit. it, namely, that the Report of the Committee had been issued only on the 31st July. Lord Ripon was unable to "To inquire (1) into the working of the laws relating to the relief of poor persons in the United Kingdom. (2) Into the various means Laws for meeting distress arising from want of which have been adopted outside of the Poor employment, particularly during periods of severe industrial depression; and to consider and report whether any, and, if so, what modifiadministration, or fresh legislation for dealing cations of the Poor Law, or changes in their with distress, are advisable.” answer the noble Lord; but if the full. Perhaps the House would permit rum Dur was correct, the Government him to read themmust have made up their mind with regard to the Constitution of the Transvaal before the Report was issued. Probably the Report was not what they wished, and, therefore, they simply disregarded it and laid down certain rules. He though, however, that the House ought to have the Report, because no doubt it would throw some light on the very serious accusation made against the Government by the hon. Member for Dulwich on the previous day-that they had gerrymandered the Transvaal Constitution. Not only were the terms of reference of a very weighty character, but under PoorLaw administration alone they had to deal with subjects of the vastest character. There were 645 boards of guardians, *THE SPEAKER: Order. The hon. 22,486 officials, and the membership of Gentleman is not entitled to embark the boards of guardians must be anyon that discussion. As long as he thing up to 30,000. There were at the confines himself to the subject of the present time nearly 250,000 pauper South African Constitution Commission inmates, and over half a million in and the demand for the production of receipt of outdoor relief. We were spenda Report, he is in order; but the wider ing year by year about £14,250,000 on question does not arise on this narrower Poor-Law administration of one kind issue. and another. Therefore, they would see that the Commission had to inquire, MR. ASHLEY said that as he under Poor-Law administration alone, was precluded from going into the into very grave and far-reaching social other matter, as he had intended problems. Up to the 2nd of last month to do, he could only suggest that the Commission had held eighty-three it would be well if the Government meetings, and had examined a large allowed the right hon. Gentleman the number of witnesses, and they had Member for St. George's, Hanover Square, made visits to a number of places, to see the Report in confidence. In such as Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and another case the Government had allowed Sheffield. It was impossible for him an hon. Member of the House the same to say when they were likely to report. privilege with regard to the Report He knew that, with the exception of of another Committee, and if permission short vacations, they had been meeting in this instance were extended to the right hon. Gentleman, he could promise that nothing would be allowed to leak out. every week, and had been devoting themselves to work with all industry and expedition. He agreed that it was desirable that they should report as *THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRE soon as possible, because of the grave TARY TO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT questions to which the noble Lord BOARD (Dr. MACNAMARA, Camberwell, had very properly referred-questions N.) said he would answer, as far as he which he was happy to think were could, the Question of the noble Lord altogether outside Party politics. It with regard to the Poor Law Commission. was desirable, at the same time, that the The noble Lord was, of course, aware, Report should be thorough and reliable, that after the appointment of the Com- because great issues were involved. mission, and the settlement of the terms The noble Lord had asked him of reference, the Government had no as to questions which were still pendauthority over them, and all they could ing-would the Government be comdo was to await their Report. With re- pelled to await the Report of the gard to this Commission, in his opinion, Royal Commission. He very much it was the most important of our time. doubted whether that question was in The terms of reference were extremely order in connection with this Vote, and Mr. Ashley. |