Meehan, Patrick A. Money, L. G. Chiozza Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw Norman, Sir Henry O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Runciman, Walter Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland) Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Scott, A. H. (Ashton-und. -Lyne Sears, J. E. Seaverns, J. H. Seely, Major J. B. Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) Simon, John Allsebrook Stanley, Hn. A.Lyulph(Chesh.) Stewart, Halley (Greenock) O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) O'Malley, William Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek) Power, Patrick Joseph Rea, Russell (Gloucester) Macdonald, J.M(Falkirk B'ghs) Reddy, M. Maclean, Donald Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. M'Callum, John M. MacVeigh, Charles(Donegal, E. M'Crae, George M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Manfield, Harry (Northants) Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Rendall, Athelstan Marks, G. Croydon(Launceston) Roche, Augustine (Cork) Massie, J. Masterman, C. F. G. Roche, John (Galway, East) Original Question put, and agreed to. Resolution to be reported to-morrow; Committee to sit again to-morrow. ADJOURNMENT. On the Motion for the Adjournment, Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.-Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease. THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY ΤΟ THE TREASURY (Mr. GEORGE WHITELEY, Yorkshire, W.R., Pudsey) gave notice that to-morrow the suspension of the cleven o'clock rule. would be moved. Adjourned at sixteen minutes after Eleven o'clock. An Asterisk (*) at the commencement of a Speech iudicates revision by a Member. HOUSE OF LORDS. Tuesday, 12th March, 1907. PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS. The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with: Middlesbrough, Stockton-on-Tees, and Thornaby Tramways [H.L.]. CHARITY COMMISSION. Fifty-Fourth Report of the Charity Commissioners for England and Wales. EDUCATION (SCOTLAND). Regulations for the preliminary education, training, and certification of teachers for various grades of schools, 1907. Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table. SEA AND COAST FISHERIES FUND (IRELAND) (NON-CONGESTED DISTRICTS). Account for the year ended 31st The same was ordered to lie on the December, 1906. Laid before the House Table. (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table. Weston-super-Mare Grand Pier Bill [H.L.]. The Chairman of Committees informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn. The order made on the 28th of February last discharged, and Bill committed for Tuesday next. West Riding Tramways Bill [H.L.]. Reported, without Amendment. Royal Insurance Company Bill [H.L.]; Medway Lower Navigation Bill [H.L.]; West Yorkshire Tramways Bill H.L.; Folkestone, Sandgate, and Hythe Tramways Bill (H.L.]. Reported, with Amend ments. Newquay and District Water Bill [H.L.]. The consent of the Prince of Wales signified; and Bill reported, with Amend ments. Manchester Ship Canal (Various Powers) Bill [H.L.]. The King's consent signified; and Bill reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments. Humber Conservancy Bill [H.L.]. Report of the Board of Trade on the Humber Conservancy Bill [H.L.]. Ordered to be laid before the House. (The Lord Granard (E. Granard). Humber Conservancy Bill [H.L.]. Report respecting. Laid before the House (pursuant to Order of this day), and to be printed. (No. 14.) RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC. AUSTRALIA. TRAWLING IN THE MORAY FIRTH. THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, in the absence of my noble friend, Lord Government the Question standing in his Heneage, I beg to put to His Majesty's name-viz., whether they will lay on the Table of the House the orders to be issued to the commanders of the cruisers in the service of the Scottish Fishery Board, in relation to British subjects under contract of service with the owners of foreign vessels; also whether similar orders have been issued by the Admiralty to naval cruisers on the coast of Scotland. *LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL: My Lords, I am able to give the noble Lord. the information for which he asks. In fact, it was given by my noble friend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in the speech which he made on this subject a little more than a fortnight ago. The instructions to be observed are. as follow:-When the officer commanding a cruiser detects a trawler under a foreign flag trawling within the waters of the Moray Firth he is to obtain full information as to the operations of the trawler, such information to include all the facts that would be necessary for successful prosecution in the case of a British trawler detected under like circumstances; with this addition, that every person on the vessel, of whatever rank, who uses or assists in the use of the method of fishing known as beam or otter trawling, should be included in the report. This Report of the Royal Commission on instruction has been issued to the cruisers Old-age Pensions. of the Scottish Fishery Board, and—— THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE The statement made to the House by the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs was that they should be included in the report "with a view to individual prose cution." *LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL: I have just referred to the Report in Hansard of my noble friend's speech. The noble Marquess is quite right. That is, of course, the object of obtaining the information. This instruction has been issued to the officers commanding the cruisers in the service of the Scottish Fishery Board, and a similar instruction has been communicated to the officer commanding the only Admiralty vessel engaged in this duty. : *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE My Lords, I rise only for the purpose of expressing my hope that these instructions will be carried out in a cautious and considerate spirit, because I think it is quite clear that our fishermen are placed in a somewhat difficult and invidious position owing to the action of the Scottish authorities in this matter. What has happened is this. I understand that one or more Norwegian vessels have been found trawling outside the threemile limit, but within waters which we desire to treat as if they formed part of the territorial waters of this country. There can be no doubt that the action of the High Court of Justiciary in Scotland, in convicting these persons, was quite in accordance with their duty. The Court had not to consider questions of international policy, but the strict question of the construction of an Act of Parliament; and, dealing with it in that manner, they came to the only conclusion at which, in my opinion, they could arrive. It seems to me that His Majesty's Government also dealt wisely and appropriately with the case when they directed that the masters of the vessels should be released and that the fines should not be enforced, because it is clear that municipal legislation of this kind could not be enforced against foreigners found outside the territorial waters of this country. Therefore, up to this point, if I may say so, I think the best has been made of a very bad job. But the result is unfortunate, because it gives, in Lord Hamilton of Dalzell. Now, my Lords, we come to what I might call the second chapter of the story, which is even more perplexing than the first chapter. We have now to consider how we are to deal with any British subjects who may be found on board one of these foreign vessels. Let me say at once that it seems to me that in a case where there is a deliberate and flagrant evasion of the law, where a Scottish vessel, for example, equipped with Scottish capital and manned by Scotsmen, shelters itself under a foreign flag in order to do something in contravention of the municipal law of this country, there can be no doubt that the authorities would be right in taking advantage of the state of the law in order to proceed against that vessel to the best of their ability. But there are other cases which are less simple. In listening to the statement of Lord Heneage the other evening, what I understood was that on board some of these vessels, which really were Norwegian vessels and had not been colourably transferred, there were to be found or two one British subjects, who had taken service on them under contract and were obliged, therefore, to obey the instructions given to them by the skippers, and that it was against these unfortunate people that proceedings were now to be taken. That seems to me to be pushing the law rather far; and what, a little, alarms me in the wording of the instructions which have just been read to the House is this-that they seem to contemplate that the local police vessels should make it their business to intercept foreign fishing vessels, search them for British subjects, and then proceed against those subjects with the utmost severity. That procedure may sometimes be inevitable, but it does seem to me to be a matter that should be handled with very great tact and caution. I am bound to say that I have at the which is of no use to anybody except back of my mind a suspicion that the a few longshore fishermen engaged Scottish authorities and the Foreign in a decaying industry. Office are not exactly of one mind as to the manner in which the case should be dealt with, and if I may venture to give a word of advice I would recall the old saying attributed in the early days of the Volunteers to a member of that corps. One Volunteer said to his neighbour, "You are out of step," and the next man replied, "Then change yours." If anybody changes step in this matter I hope it will be the Scottish Office, and not the Office represented by my noble friend. LORD HENEAGE: My Lords, I am very sorry that I arrived at the House just too late to put my Question myself, and I am indebted to the noble Earl for asking it in my name. There is one question I should like to put to the representative of the Scottish Office-namely, whether it is in the power of a cruiser belonging to the Scottish Fishery Authorities to board a vessel outside the territorial waters and to inquire as to whom they have on board. It is quite clear that the men who are to be prosecuted next Monday would never have been prosecuted at all, their names would never have been known, if it had not been for the fact that the Scotish Fishery Board's cruiser boarded the vessel when they wanted to prosecute the skipper, and then they got the names of the men. If international law as indicated by my noble friend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs is correct, they had no right to board these vessels or to interfere with them in the North Sea. The instructions now given to the cruisers apparently contemplate the boarding of foreign vessels in the North Sea, for it is the North Sea, although it has been formally enclosed by the Moray Firth by-law. I must remind the Government that the great difficulty we had when we first began trawling in the North Sea was the difficulty of foreign countries boarding vessels which they said were inside territorial waters, but which we said were outside. It appears to me that, if this is persisted in by the first maritime nation in the world, we shall have reprisals, which will bring up the whole of these quarrels again. You are going to risk the closing of onefifth of the North Sea in order to preserve 2,000 miles in the Moray Firth, I have heard different opinions as to the effect of the reply given yesterday. Very acute minds have taken the view that the Scottish Office have abandoned their prosecution of these men on whom summonses were served for being on the vessels at the time the skippers were prosecuted. But I do not read it in that way. I think that the summonses now in the pockets of the men, who are walking about idle at Grimsby at this moment in consequence, are to be proIf ceeded with under municipal law. they are going to be withdrawn, notice should at once be given to the men, THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord LOREBURN): My Lords, it must have occurred to your Lordships that in the conversation, both to day and yesterday, you are discussing a subject which is to come before a tribunal next Monday in regard to the prosecution of certain individuals; and I cannot forbear from saying that in my opinion it is very inconvenient, and of the worst example, that Parliament should interpose, just before a Criminal Court is going to give its decision, for the purpose of discussing the very subject that is going to be tried before that Court. I respectfully submit that to the consideration of the whole House. I am going to say nothing in regard to the persons who are to be tried on Monday beyond this-that if they are innocent of any intention to break British law, I sincerely hope that British Courts will regard them with tenderness and consideration, as everybody would wish. But on the question of policy something surely ought to be said. What is the question? It has been created by an Act of Parliament passed in the year 1889. I make it no reproach to the noble Marquess that he was a party to the passing of that Act. No doubt he and his colleagues thought that it would work of itself. But it has not. By the Act certain local authorities in Scotland could close under a by-law all fishing within the waters of the Moray Firth between two headlands which were eighty-five miles apart. It is the obvious contention on the part of other nations-and it is very difficult to encounter-that if you |