foundation on which instructions and regulations are to be laid for the management of labour in the New Hebrides. Hitherto there have been none so far as we are concerned. Now we have drawn this Convention by joint agreement as the general lines on which the regulation of labour is to take place in the New Hebrides. The right hon. Gentleman and hon. Members opposite assume that these regulations, as they appear in the Convention, are a maximum. They are not the maximum. They are the minimum of safeguards from which we start. They have to be supplemented by instructions to the Commissioners with regard to the carrying of them out, and they are supplemented in the Convention by power to the Commissioners to make regulations to see that they are properly carried out. And of all the points which have been made hitherto I do not think there is one which cannot be covered by regulations to be made by the Commissioners in the islands, or instructions to be sent to them. Take the hours of labour, for instance. The provision in the Convention is simply to exclude altogether hours of labour at ⚫ night; it is not to say that the hours of labour in the day must be twelve, nor does it prevent further regulations being drawn up by the Commissioners to see that in each case the hours of labour not only do not amount to twelve, but are not under any conditions excessive. And when the regulations are carried out you must have inspectors appointed under them to see, not merely that nobody is employed in night work, but that the conditions under which they are employed during the day, and the length of time that they are employed during the day, are proper and not oppressive. [OPPOSITION cries of "Outside the group."] As regards any British territory outside, surely that is a matter to be dealt with by instructions to Fiji, or to any British territory to which the labourers are sent. And, if in any British territory to which the labourers are sent the conditions are more stringent than they are under the New Hebrides Convention, it will be the conditions in the place to which they go which will govern the condition of the labourers there. In the group you have power to the Commissioners to make supplementary regulations, and to see that the provisions of this Convention are carried out in a humane and reasonable manner. Outside the group in British territory you have equal power to regulate the whole conditions of labour of everybody in that territory whether they go there from the New Hebrides or anywhere else; and any importations from the New Hebrides will get the benefit of the conditions there. Take the further point of whether natives will be engaged not understanding the conditions of the contract. Clearly, under this Convention when it comes into force you must, as far as British recruiting is concerned, have officers who, before embarkation, will investigate the conditions and make sure that the natives recruited do understand the conditions under which they are engaged. But that is not a matter to be provided for in the Convention itself. [OPPOSITION Cries of "Why not?"] Because we have got to draw up for ourselves the instructions and regulations necessary for carrying out the Convention. The Convention lays down a certain general minimum of safeguards. It remains for us, when the Convention has to be worked, to send the instructions to the Commissioners to make the regulations to ensure that the Convention is carried out in the spirit as well as in the letter. The Commissioners must, of course, have power to decide from time to time what are the conditions which it is thought fit to impose upon recruiters. They clearly will have an ample discretion, by the appointment of inspectors and by the appointment of officers for the purpose, to ensure that these abuses which hon. Members say might arise under the Convention shall not arise. The Convention prescribes certain general objects. It does not say how those objects are to be carried out. How they are to be carried out and whether they are efficiently carried out depends, and must depend, upon the regulations issued by the Commissioners on the spot on instructions sent to them. [Mr. STANLEY WILSON: "We put it all in the Chinese Convention."] One thing more is wanted. The House has got the Convention before it. It must, of course, have before it when the regulations are drawn up, as they will be drawn up before the Convention comes into force, the instructions which are drawn up for our Commissioners, and it will have from time to time the regulations made, under the Convention for the carrying out of the Convention. You have two alternatives otherwise. One is to leave labour entirely unregulated, which I think is undesirable; the other is to prohibit labour being engaged in the islands at all, which, of course, is out of the question and would not be for the good of the islands-it would make progress impossible. Here you have the possibility of a Convention such as this, which is being laid down as the starting point, but which needs to be supplemented by instructions and regulations for the carrying of it out. Within those limits there is ample power for making satisfactory and humane regulations, and I have not the least doubt that before the Convention comes into force the House will be satisfied by the instructions which have been issued that they are such as will secure that the Convention is carried out, not only in the letter, but in the spirit. SIR GILBERT PARKER (Gravesend) said the remarks which had just fallen from the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs were very interesting and illuminating in some respects, but they were by no means conclusive. The right hon. Baronet had given no reasons whatever why England and France, which were jointly responsible for the well-being of the natives in the New Hebrides, had no joint responsibility and apparently no individual responsibility for the wellbeing of the natives outside the islands. officers to refuse licences for work out- SIR EDWARD GREY: I did not say worth the paper it was written on. that. SIR GILBERT PARKER said that the Under-Secretary for the Colonies in answer to a question had replied that it was within the power of these One of the parties to the Convention desired, not with any ulterior object, to have a larger supply of native labour, and they signed it because it gave freedom to France to make her own regulations for making and recruiting labour under conditions which France alone the New Hebrides with Australia had should establish, and to get all the labourers she required for New Caledonia from the New Hebrides. He did not quarrel with that, but he did quarrel with putting the Convention upon any other basis but that. The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs had spoken about the articles of the Convention dealing with the employment of labour as being simply the broad lines upon which the labour was to be conducted. The right hon. Gentleman said that the natives under the Convention would have rights. They might be employed from sunrise to sunset, and in twenty to thirty other particulars the Convention was as explicit as the Chinese Ordinance. But the right hon. Baronet said that those articles were only the basis of the Convention. In his opinion it was never intended to go one step further than those articles in regard to the regulations for labour in the New Hebrides had it not been for the debates which had taken place in this House. The silence of hon. Members on the Ministerial side when this question was first raised was the very best proof that they were wholly justified in raising the discussion. The right hon. Baronet had spoken about the details being left for further consideration by the High Commissioner and for further instructions which would be sent out. If France was ready to consider those regulations now, after the Convention was signed, why were not the protests of the Colonies and of Australasia in particular considered before the Convention was signed Thirty-six of the sixty articles of the Convention were criticised by the Australasian Government. These elaborate, carefully argued, and moderately put proposals were sent home, but it was too late. The right hon. Gentleman suggested to the House that matters had so crystallised between France and England that it would have endangered the signing of the Convention if the protests of the people who understood the conditions had been pressed. He was afraid that the right hon. Gentleman had unintentionally misled the House with regard to the importance of the New Hebrides to Australia in the matter of trade. It was true that France had a greater population in the New Hebrides. The trade of Sir Gilbert Parker. increased. It had been suggested that the Australian tariff prevented the development of trade with the New Hebrides, but the right hon. Gentleman knew that a subsidy had been granted to ships trading between the New Hebrides and Australian ports with the result that the total exports from the New Hebrides in 1905 were £43,000. The exports to Sydney were £25,000 and to Numea £18,000. Apart from the general desire to have proper control of the natives of the island, he honestly believed that the Convention rested upon the desire on the part of France to have a free hand in the recruiting of natives in the island for New Caledonia. The right hon. Gentleman had suggested that all we had to do in the future was to approach France and get France's consent to new regulations, and then to instruct accordingly the High Commissioners who would grant the licences. Did the right hon. Gentleman think that that was going to be an easy matter now that the Convention was settled? Did he not realise that, if there was a difficulty in getting France to sign the Convention at all, there would be much greater difficulty in reopening the question, and getting what would be called the petty details settled, in a country where the people would not be so exactly concerned for the well-being of the natives on the islands as the followers of the right hon. Gentleman? He and his friends complained of the articles of the Convention as not being full enough, not upon the basis that the natives were being badly treated, but upon the basis that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen were not true to their own professions, and that they had been insincere. Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite, when in Opposition, insisted that every detail should be worked out, settled, and defined in this House. They would not trust the High Commissioners, nor the officers employed by the Government in South Africa, nor the Government through the Legislative Council. They would not trust their humanity. Humanity as expressed in the views of Members of this House was to be the only guide. The present Opposition had some right to complain. If hon. Gentlemen opposite were going to apply that principle to the making of regulations and to entrust nothing to individuals, then in the signing of this Convention the Government, according to their own views, had not done their duty. He protested against the silence of hon. Members on the other side of the House. MR. LUPTON (Lincolnshire, Sleaford) said they were waiting till the hon. Member sat down. SIR GILBERT PARKER said he had no doubt the hon. Member would be ready to reply. In regard to the question of Mr. J. B. Robinson's relations with the Government, he would only deal with one point in the hon. Gentleman's speech The Under Secretary had said that all that was necessary for the Witswaters rand Native Labour Association to do to regulate the supply of labour in the Transvaal was to turn on and off the tap at its will. tion. He also wanted to justify the action with regard to Mr. J. B. Robinson, who agreed to give up his licence for 3,000 Chinese if he could have the privilege of recruiting in Portuguese East Africa. Was that a fact? The hon. Gentleman said the other day that, on the day of the meeting of the Commission that had been appointed to consider the whole question of recruiting in Portuguese East Africa, the Portuguese Government had agreed to denounce their agreement with the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association. Was that a fact? MR. CHURCHILL: That was the agreement which the Portuguese Government made. The date of the Commission is not yet fixed. The state of things which it affects is entirely altered. SIR GILBERT PARKER: Then I MR. CHURCHILL: I said it was in understand that the Commission lapses. their power. Is that the case? MR. CHURCHILL: The Commission will not be persisted in unless it is the wish of the new Government. SIR GILBERT PARKER said the hon. Gentleman had brought charges against the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association which he had not supported by a particle of evidence. He had made the charges in order to secure a political point at the moment, knowing in his own mind when he did so that the Commission would not be appointed until after the burden of responsibility had been thrown upon the people of the Transvaal. SIR GILBERT PARKER: But why did the hon. Gentleman make such a statement unless he meant that they were likely to do it? What evidence was there that the association turned on and off the tap at any moment? The hon. Gentleman knew that the Chamber of Mines in the Transvaal by two separate resolutions refused at all to consider the idea of bringing Chinese, Japs, or Oriental labour into the Transvaal. It determined first to use every effort to see how many of the 500,000 natives could be got. Before the war they had between 100,000 and 110,000. Where was the evidence of turning on and off the tap in the record after the war? In 1901 there were 14,851 recruited; in 1902, MR. CHURCHILL: The Commission 58,000; in 1903, 85,000; in 1904, was not to inquire into the methods 87,000; in 1905, 101,000; and in 1906, of the Witwatersrand Native Labour 90,000. There was thus a steady Association. increase during these years. There had been £424,000 spent in recruiting. There was absolutely no turning on and off of the tap. There were 30,000 natives employed in domestic and other kinds of work outside the mines. They had come to the Witwatersrand district since the war, so that there were as many native labourers in the Transvaal now as there were before the war. The hon. Gentleman wanted to justify the attack which had been made on the Witwatersrand Native Labour Associa SIR GILBERT PARKER said he knew that very well, but the point which the hon. Gentleman made against the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association was that it turned on and off the tap of native labour when it chose and that its methods were corrupt, whereas the evidence was entirely against him from every quarter. He made those charges to score a political point, hoping to get advantage for his friend Mr. J. B. Robinson, but that had not been achieved. The Government knew that it would not the Witwatersrand Labour Association be achieved because of the correct attitude of the Portuguese Government. MR. CHURCHILL said that the hon. Gentleman had no right to speak in that manner. The hon. Gentleman had no reason to know what was in his mind. He had spoken to the Committee with the utmost frankness when he said that he honestly believed that the Commission would in fact meet, and that facilities would be extended to other parties from month to month, until a new state of things supervened. SIR GILBERT PARKER said that that excuse did not explain the circumstances; and he ventured to suggest that the hon. Gentleman had not substantiated a single charge which had been made against the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association. There was a report signed by Mr. Quinn and Mr. Whiteside, friends of the present Government. He knew no more honourable gentleman than Mr. Quinn, who was, moreover, a Labour Member, and in the report which he signed as to the inquiry into the methods of recruiting and the results obtained from it, it was stated that that inquiry had been of the most searching character and that no evidence whatever had been brought forward in support of the accusations made against the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association, that the officials. of the Association had carried out their work zealously, and that the money spent had been well and generously spent, and had been well directed. He knew a great many members of the Johannesburg Chamber of Mines and of the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association, and he had a right to say that the attack made upon them was unworthy of the hon. Gentleman and of the office which he held. had not been beyond reproach; but the concession for entering into that competition had been given to a member of the Witwatersrand Labour Association who had broken the rules of the Association, had been driven from it, and had secured the support of the Government. Would the hon. Gentleman get a return as to the conditions under which the natives in Portuguese Territory were to be recruited? No charge made against the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association had, he contended, brought conviction to the House either on the one side or the other. He moved the reduction of the vote by £1,000. The statements of the Under-Secretary for the Colonies in regard to the Progressive Party in the Transvaal, and all those opposed to him, had not been either outspoken or high-minded. If Lord Elgin, and not the Under-Secretary, represented the Colonial Office point of view, then he ventured to say that Lord Elgin's own words were the strongest criticism that had been made of the speeches of the hon. Member on the Chinese question. The chickens were coming home to roost; there would be a good many bills to pay and accounts to settle in South Africa, and everywhere else; and that they would be settled against the present Government when the great accounting came. Motion made, and Question proposed. "That Item, Class II., Vote 6 (Colonial Office), be reduced by £1,000."—(Sir Gilbert Parker.) MAJOR SEELY (Liverpool, Abercromby) said that the hon. Member for Gravesend had, together with others, made an attack on the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies, in regard to what had been said of the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association; but he would have supposed that most hon. Members, MR. MARKHAM said that Mr. Quinn knowing what the record of that signed the minority Report. body was in regard to its management, and knowing that it had reduced the wages of the native labourers at the very time when they ought to have been increased―― SIR GILBERT PARKER said that Mr. Quinn signed the minority Report on one point alone; but Mr. Quinn gave his adherence to every statement he had quoted. The hon. Gentleman, he knew, had in his mind competition by respectable bodies if you please. for recruiting in Portuguese territory. and other parts of South Africa. There SIR GILBERT PARKER: Robinson, MAJOR SEELY said that that had was nothing bad in that if the efforts of nothing to do with the matter. If he Sir Gilbert Parker. |