1907} Depts. Estimates, 1907-8

CLASS IV.

3,000
3,000

United Kingdom and England :

£

British Museum

60,000

National Gallery

10,000

National Portrait Gallery

60,000

850,000
3,000

760,000

400 2,000 2,500

250,000
350,000

25,000
49,000

MR. LYTTELTON (St. George's, Hanover Square): There is one matter which I hope will not be deemed to be controversial and upon which I desire, if possible, to obtain some information from the Government: I refer to the organisation of what has hitherto been called the I hope this quesColonial Conference. tion is not of a controversial character. Two years ago on behalf of the late Government I wrote a despatch in which certain propositions were made to the self-governing Colonies for the further regulating of the Colonial Conference. The first suggestion was that the Conference should henceforward be called the Imperial Council, or, as I should now desire, the Imperial Conference. The second was that there should be set up a committee or a commission containing representatives of both the mother and daughter States, who, in the intervals between the successive meetings of the Conference, should confer together upon the questions to be submitted to the Conference, digest them, and present them for discussion in the most concise and businesslike way possible. It was felt that the Colonial Premiers, at all times busy men, when they came here would not have a very long time in which to dispose of their wide and complicated business. They would have to meet also a storm of hospitality. The late Government, therefore, made these I need hardly say proposals, but they were made in full view of the root principle, which has, I think, been firmly established, that the footing of the parties at the Conference shall be that of a mother State meeting daughter States That principle, of which I equality. have been an advocate two or three years, received immense authority the other day by the speech of my right hon. friend on the subject of defence. The proposals in the despatch to which I exclude have referred did not in any way the question of commercial preference; the better organisation of the Conference was not, in my mind, in any degree a substitute for commercial preference, but, The if anything, an assistance to it. response of the self governing Colonies. has on the whole been extremely favourable. Australia, New Zealand, the - £7,430,000 Cape, Natal, all in different ways met the proposal with great cordiality. So strong has been their representation, indeed, that the Colonial Secretary has

Miscellaneous Charitable and

Hospitals and Charities,

300,000

1,150

Ireland

17,000

Savings Banks and Friendly

Societies Deficiencies

put down as the first subject for discus- from the Colonial Office which have given sion at the Colonial Conference next offence, it was couched in a peculiarly month the constitution of the Con- unfortunate and ungracious form because ference and the ancillary machinery it conveyed the impression that the whereby its proceedings may be Colonial Secretary was against these made more businesslike and effective. I proposals, though they were approved believe that my proposals were received by four out of five of the Colonies with substantial favour by many hon. themselves. So much for that question. Gentlemen opposite, as well as by I will now turn to the subject of my friends on this side. I had ex- South Africa. As the Committee pressed a doubt myself whether it knows, the new Transvaal Assembly would be wise or necessary, by any contains a large majority of Boer repreinstruction to the Conference, to de- sentatives over all the other Parties. The fine more closely its constitution, or only comment I will make on that to attempt to delimit its functions, state of things is to repeat the hope for a study of Anglo-Saxon institutions I have on two previous occasions exseems to show that an institution may pressed in regard to the general policy of often wisely be left to develop in accord- the granting of self-government to the ance with circumstances, and that it is Transvaal at this time, which is that well not to sacrifice elasticity and the the misgivings that are felt will not power of adaptation to a premature be realised. But I must point out that, definiteness of form. I still hold that from the information received, many of opinion strongly, and I think the Com- the hopes and beliefs of the Government mittee will see that the proposals that in regard to the Transvaal have not been have been made do not conflict with that well founded or well considered. They opinion. I ought to mention that the hoped and believed that there would be answer of Canada was not so cordial in an even balance of Parties; that a her acceptance of the proposal, but I think coalition Government would be formed the right hon. Member for the Forest of and that Sir Richard Solomon might be Dean exaggerated the case when he said Prime Minister; that the first action of that Canada was hostile. Although the enfranchised community would be to Canada showed some misgivings on the sweep the Chinese out of the country if subject, she, at any rate, took up the coolies had not already availed of the the position that she was fully prepared invitation of his Majesty's Government to discuss the question at the Conference, to repatriate themselves at the expense and desired that it should be so discussed. of the State. What has happened? The I confess I was surprised to find how the Committee knows very well the facts. Colonial Secretary in a short despatch to the Colonies, on 22nd February last year, had expressed himself in relation to this proposal. He said

"My predecessor committed to your Government, in his despatch of 7th December last, the Parliamentary Paper containing the correspondence with various Colonial Governments arising out of his despatch of 20th April which dealt with certain proposals respecting the organisation of future Colonial Conferences. I do not feel myself called upon to adopt the recommendation of those proposals; but in view of the expressions of opinion received from the Colonies I think that it will be desirable that the scheme should be freely discussed

when the Conference meets."

Well we all hope that it will be freely discussed. If that were intended as a mere declaration of neutrality on the part of the Colonial Secretary or that in that state of circumstances the noble Lord did not want to give himself away, no one would have any right to complain; but, like other despatches Mr. Lyttelton.

MR. LUPTON (Lincolnshire, Sleaford): Yes, it does.

*MR. LYTTELTON: There is not a balance of Parties. The Boers are in a large majority; General Botha, and not Sir Richard Solomon, is Prime Minister; those manacled slaves, the Chinese, have responded only to the extent of one and a fraction per cent. to the invitation to repatriate themselves, and all political Parties in the Transvaal have unanimously adopted the position that was taken up by the late Government that the Chinese should be kept only as long as was necessary, and no longer, in the event of native labour being able to replace them. give a warning to the Government and to hon. Members behind them who take a sincere interest in this question with reference to humanity. On looking

Let me

expense.

through the new Blue-book I find time private recruiting and with it great that while the death-rate from disease abuses prevailed, but since the instituamong the Chinese employed in the tion of the Native Labour Association Recently mines amounts to only 11 per 1,000, these abuses have ceased. the death rate among the natives who appeared a Mr. J. B. Robinson, the labour in the mines is 37 per 1,000. chief of a great mining group in the I have no knowledge of I do not think that any candid man or Transvaal. any man of common sense can say from that gentleman, except that he seems a consideration of those figures that the to be a person of astuteness, for he I has got the best of the Government Chinese coolies have been ill-used. have no objection to-indeed I strongly in a transaction in which they peradvocate the employment of natives, formed a not very distinguished part. provided they are of sufficient stamina. This Government and their supporters But I repeat my warning to the who proclaim themselves anti-capitalGovernment and to those of their sup- ists, enthusiasts for equality of opporand who number among porters who take a keen interest in the sub-tunity, ject from the humanitarian point of view themselves just a few humdrum lovers not to take upon themselves the respon- of fair play, have given to this Mr. sibility of unduly pressing the Transvaal J. B. Robinson a monopoly, a perfectly Mr. Government to bring in natives who die unjustifiable preference in the recruitat more than three times the rate of the ing of natives in Mozambique. Chinese, especially as the Chinese are Robinson was a member of the Native accustomed to working in the mines and Labour Association for five years and are so satisfied with their lot that they derived great advantages from it— refuse to return home at other people's an association which, of course, depends for success upon agreement between its members, for the large mine-owner might otherwise undercut, and so starve the small mine-owner. Then this austere, impartial Government gave to Mr. Robinson a licence to recruit in Portugese terriresult others without inquiry, the tory, but they refused licences to being that this particular capitalist had and would for months have the opportunity of organising a supply of competitive native labour against, not only his equals in the mining industry, but against humbler mine-owners for whom he will make the obtaining of recruits impossible. What is the reason for this? founded on It cannot be substance, because two parties who might be said to be independent in this matter the Portuguese Government, through the Acting Governor of Mozambique, and Sir Godfrey Lagden, a name honoured in native administration all over Africa-have expressed opinions against this competition for native labour, and have favoured the policy of action by one General powerful organisation amenable to regulaThe Governor tions. Mozambique said

*MR. MACKARNESS (Berkshire, Newbury) said that the right hon. Gentleman had stated that the deathrate of the Chinese coolies in the mines was very much less than that of the native labourers; but was the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the death rate of the natives in the Kimberley mines. was much less than that of those in the Rand mines, and that that was attributed to the bad treatment the natives

had suffered in the latter mines?

not

do *MR. LYTTELTON: I know the circumstances and I do not believe it. If it is attributed to the bad treatment of the natives it is I have before me falsely attributed. the Blue-book in which the official testi mony distinctly denies that conclusion. I think that the interruption of the shows the hostile hon. Gentleman feeling and foolish and illiberal prejudices which many people have against the managers of the mining industry on the Rand. I wish in this Convention to bring one or two matters before the Committee which I am bound to say seriously affect the credit of the Government. Five years ago the Native Labour Association was established for the purpose of recruiting Before that natives in South Africa.

a reason

South

of

"It is not the desire of this Government to encourage in any way the different groups of mines to initiate either competitive recruiting or free recruiting, since it is apparent that in the actual circumstances this would result in certain inconveniences without any assurance of obtaining the result which is pretended of