individual marksmen in this country, in | of 150,000 men, and we also had to the purchase of orthoptics and verniers. prepare for the possibility of a great war It would mean a great economy to them on a larger scale. That great struggle and a good thing in every way if they might be on the Indian frontier or on were allowed, instead of using all these the Egyptian frontier, but so long as this contrivances which they could not take on country was supreme at sea the latter service, and were no good except on rifle danger did not need to be taken into ranges, to fix suitable sights on their own account. We always had to look rifles. They would then have the full forward to requiring a large force on the advantage of them on service, as Indian frontier, and the test to apply to long as they succeeded in keeping their the present scheme was whether we should own rifles with them. He had said that be in a better position under it to put different eyes required different sights. this large number of men into the field He had personally fixed sights to on the Indian frontier. The hon. and a rifle, which were worth two or gallant Member for the Abercromby three points in thirty-five, but he Division made a very fine speech, but it might not use them, and many other was spoiled by the dangerous doctrines rifle shots were in the same position. expressed as to the value of the Volunteer He hoped the Government might be able unit, as compared with the professional to adopt a policy of greater latitude in unit. this matter. He was sure it would pay in the long run. It would increase the interest in musketry, and that not only amongst good shots; because the indifferent man would soon realise the advantage gained by experts in the use of these sights, and that would encourage him to pay attention to the matters of wind and elevation, and to find out what suited his own eyesight best. By doing this they would not only be giving a boon to the expert, but also encouragement to the indifferent and the beginner. By these means general proficiency in the Auxiliary Forces would be attained. He was sure that was an object which all interested in shooting must have in view.

*CAPTAIN KINCAID-SMITH (Warwickshire, Stratford-on-Avon): said that unless every one agreed to yield up his personal opinions and helped to make the right hon. Gentleman's scheme a success there appeared to be little chance of giving practical effect to it. Under this scheme 150,000 men were to be put aside as an expeditionary force. The scheme, however, must stand or fall by the fact whether or not the country would be provided with machinery to put a far larger body of men in the field than it was able to do in 1900, or was contemplated by this exby this expeditionary force. The possibility of a war which might require these men was very remote, but we had nevertheless always to look forward to it. It was agreed by both sides that what we wanted was this small expeditionary force Mr. Courthope.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress; and ask leave to sit again"-(Captain KincaidSmith),-put, and agreed to.

Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow.

CHURCH OF ENGLAND (DISESTABLISH-
MENT).

*MR. EVERETT (Suffolk, Woodbridge) rose to call attention to the desirability of the disestablishment and disendowment of the Church of England as by law established, and to move "That in the interests alike of religion and the nation, it was desirable to disestablish and disendow the Church of England both in England and Wales." He said that in 1869, Mr. Gladstone, one of the Godliest as well as one of the ablest statesmen who ever sat in the House, after consulting the people at the great election of 1868, and being given by them a large majority, disestablished and disendowed the Church in Ireland. In 1871 Mr. Edward Miall, then Member for Bradford, submitted a Motion to the same Parliament to the effect that it was desirable to extend the same process to the other Established Churches in these islands. A high-toned discussion followed in which ten Members took part. The Motion was rejected by a large majority, eighty-six voting for and 204 against it, so showing that that Parliament was not then in favour of extending the process

of disestablishment further. Mr. Glad- opinion, was very much needed in this stone concluded the discussion on that occasion with the following words

House. Unfortunately, long speeches were sadly too common. He would try "I shall venture to say to my hon. friend, to give the House only the great what I am sure he will not resent, that if he leading facts which he thought should seeks to convert the majority of the House of lead to the support of the Motion. Commons, he must begin by undertaking the Centuries ago, under circumstances preliminary work of converting to these those opinions the majority of the people of England." quite different, happily, from prevailing now, great changes were made Thirty-six years had gone by since in the religious arrangements of this that debate and vote. Most of nation, which issued in the "Protestant those who took part in them had reformed religion," as it was described in been gathered to their fathers. To-day the Coronation Oath, being "established there was sitting there a new Parlia- by law." For the services and mainment recently elected by the people. It tenance of this reformed Church were was a very remarkable Parliament--it con- appropriated by Parliament certain very tained a larger proportion of the common large funds as tithes, lands, etc., which people than any Parliament that had ever were under their control. Both the gone before it. He was glad to hear religion and the funds were for the the late Prime Minister last year speak of whole nation, they were for the use of the new Parliament as a "well-meaning" all, and dire pains and penalties were Parliament. He had ventured to put meted out to any who dissented from down the Motion which he was about to the Church thus established by law as move in order to give to this new the National Church, as the Church of Parliament an opportunity of recording all. What was the position of this by its vote its opinion on the great National Church to-day? In a legal question the Motion raised. It would sense he understood they were all still surely be of advantage alike to statesmen members of it. Parliament, the Parliaand churchmen to know the general ment of the whole nation, had control mind of the House upon a question over this National Church and its funds. which went down to the very roots of But in any real religious sense it was the daily life of the nation. He very now the Church of only a minority very earnestly pressed his hon. and of the people; it was one among right hon. friends, who had put down Amendments, not to move them, but to be content with using them as opportunities of speaking on the Motion. He beseeched them to allow a straight vote to be taken on the broad principle that the Motion raised. They surely would like to know the real mind of the present House of Commons. Of course he was well aware that there was no time that night for anything like a full discussion of this great question, but there was time to record their votes. Before the views expressed in the Motion took the form of Bills, whether in this House or the other, they might be sure the amplest time would be afforded for the discussion of both principles and details. What he earnestly hoped was that all would help that night to allow them by the votes of the House to see whether the process of converting the people, of which Mr. Gladstone spoke in 1871, had or had not been accomplished. He would try to set the example of brevity-an example which, if he might respectfully offer an

the many religious denominations into which our religious life was divided; it was only distinguishable from the others by the preference which the State gave to it. They could not know with any exactness the relative size of the National Church-he was speaking of the actual living religious Church of England-as compared with the whole of the people, but they did know certain clear un mistakable facts. The first was that large masses of the people were outside any of the religious denominations, and so were outside of its pale. That was a fact they all regretted. Secondly, they knew that there were between one and two millions of Roman Catholics in this land of ours, and they, of course, were outside the pale of the National Church. The third thing they knew was that the Protestant Free Churches were outside, and the sitting accommodation in their places of worship considerably exceeded that provided by the Established Church. The latter provided accommodation for 7,300,000 sitters, and the Protestant Free Churches for 8,400,000. The

relative numbers of scholars in their the worshippers who gathered within the Sunday schools confirmed substantially walls of the parish churches. To begin the accuracy of these figures. They with, there were the Royal family, showed that in the Church Sunday and all the great nobles of the land schools there were 3,000,000 scholars, while in the Protestant Free Church schools there were 3,500,000. He respectfully submitted that these figures showed that the National Church, socalled, had within her pale less than one-half of the active religious life of the nation, and probably not much more than one-third of the whole people who made up the nation. He could not, of course, give the exact figures, but he was sure that all would agree that there was substantial truth in the statement which he had made. He asked the House to stop for a moment and marvel at the wonderful facts to which he had called attention. Let them look at the advantages of the National Church. For centuries she had been in possession of all the parish churches the most beautiful buildings in our land, buildings associated for generations and centuries with the religious feelings of the people of the country. There was also the rectory or vicarage in every parish with a resident minister. In the county in which he lived it was a common saying that the best house in every parish was the parson's. These houses were associated with the work of dispensing charities, both public and private, and of course they were centres of great influence. Besides the parsonage influence, the National Church had all the ancient seats of learning. Our famous colleges, our great public schools, and all the grammar schools were in her possession, thus giving her the tuition of the flower of our youth of the upper and middle classes. Most of the elementary schools in towns and villages had also for the last three-quarters of a century been in the possession of that Church. Nearly all the training colleges too had also been in her possession. Look again at her great army of ministers, and at the long roll of illustrious names among them. Many of her bishops and archbishops had been not only men of high birth and station but men of great learning and eloquence, distinguished theologians and earnest workers in their respective dioceses. Her parish clergy were educated men, often wealthy men, with their whole time at their disposal to seek the religious and moral good of the people. Look again at Mr. Everett

with their territorial and feudal influence ;
then there were the land-owning classes,
as a whole, and the professional classes. In
Suffolk one often heard the expression
"The church is where the quality' go."
There the rich were to be found. He
was sorry to say that there was a good
deal of truth in the saying that the
carriage never stopped for three genera-
tions at the chapel door. Let them
think, too, of the Church's social status
and of all that that meant.
And yet,
gathering together all those points which
he had only barely enumerated, they saw
the astonishing fact that within the walls
of the parish churches were to be
found but a minority of the religious life
of the country. The once forbidden,
the long despised conventicles, the humble
meeting houses, the Dissenters' chapels,
now held more of the people than did the
National churches. He asked the House
to consider why there had been this
great spiritual failure on the part of the
National Church. He ventured to
answer in the first place that her
establishment by the State was largely
answerable for it. Her connection with
the State made her a worldly Church,
a lordly and aristrocratic Church, a
political Church. [OPPOSITION cries of
No".] Some hon. Members said "no";
but how were the bishops appointed?
They all knew that they were appointed
by the Crown on the recommendation
of the Prime Minister; and what was
the Prime Minister of the country but a
political officer and one naturally favour-
ing appointments according to the views
of the political Party in power? They
also knew that the Prime Minister might
not even be a Christian man, as had
occurred in our past history and might
happen again. Then in regard to the
clergy, again came in the politician. The
bishops, politically appointed as he had
shown, had a large number of livings at
their disposal, and their appointments thus
became political appointments. [OPPOSI-
TION cries of "No"] The Lord Chan-
cellor had a large number of livings in
his gift, and what was the Lord Chan-
cellor-the head of the legal profession?
Was not his appointment to the high
office he filled the gift of the Party in
power. Was not he a politician? He

66

gave his appointments naturally with some labourers like allusions to the parsons. reference to the colour of his political Nothing pleased them so much as pitchParty. He doubted not that many hon. ing into the parsons. He witnessed this Members had received, like himself, appli- himself in Suffolk, the county in which he cations asking them if they had any influ- had lived all his life, and a division of ence with the Prime Minister or Lord which he now represented for the third Chancellor to get certain persons ap- time in this House. In Suffolk if anypointed to livings. Then the great where, the Church should have the landowners had a large number of enthusiastic support of the people. The livings which they regarded as a kind county used to be called "Holy Suffolk,” of family perquisite. They were an because of the large number of churches appendage to the aristocracy, and their and religious houses in it. There was best livings were often bestowed on their a proverbial and true saying that one younger sons. Again, some livings were was never out of sight of a church in actually bought and sold in the market! Suffolk. What of the parish clergymen Purchase had gone in the Army, but it when the question of the labourers' enstill remained in the Church. Oh, the franchisement was being discussed? One shame of it! What could be more con- would have thought that they would have trary to the teaching of the New Testa- looked to the labourers as their children, ment than the state of things he had and would have been desirous of lifting outlined? What godly Churchman did them up. But the clergy, as a whole, were not blush when he thought of these strongly opposed to the enfranchisement of things? Well might a Church, thus tied the labourers. There were a few brilliant to the world and its influences, lose touch exceptions, but these were regarded as with spiritual people and also lose her traitors by their brethren. The votes of spiritual power. And then, forsooth, this the labourers at that first election, as at thus enfeebled Church assumed, because this last election, had confirmed the feelof its State connection, an air of ascend-ings shown at the early meetings. In ency over other Churches founded on simple New Testament lines. The spirit of ascendency begotten of the State connection was, he believed, one of the greatest barriers between the National Church and the people's hearts. Why was a clergyman in England called a parson ? This was a popular corruption of the word " person. The State had made the clergyman in each parish the person. He used by right of this to take the chair at all parish meetings. It had given him powers and privileges which, human nature being what it was, had led many a parson to be among the people, not as "he that serveth," the true Christian ideal, but as "he that ruleth," as one "set over them." He believed that this spirit of ascendency was largely responsible for the alienation of so many of the people from the Church. That they were so alienated in the rural villages where the Church should be strongest, many hon. Members had evidence of in the meetings held in connection with the enfranchisement of the labourers, and with the first election in which they took part. Few had attended more such meetings than he did in 1884-5. He was astonished at what he had personally seen at those meetings. Nothing stirred the passions of the VOL. CLXX. [FOURTH SERIES.]

46

the Eastern countries then and now nearly all Liberals were returned for the county constituencies, which had returned nearly all Tories before for fifty years. The question of disestablishment, he felt confident, would have come up in the first Parliament which the labourers helped to elect (that chosen in 1885) if the Irish question which was connected with still greater grievances, had not unexpectedly cropped up and occupied the field. Judging the question by the light of the actual facts staring them in the face to-day, was it not plain that alike in the interest of religion, and of the State, it was desirable that ere many years were passed the so-called National Church, no longer the Church of people, should be disestablished and disendowed? By disestablishment, freedom would be restored to the Church to manage her own affairs, and to put an end to abuses which many good Churchmen abhorred. By disendowment the tithes would be restored again to the use of all the people for such purposes as they might themselves determine. Modern endowments would not, of course, be touched, nor life interests. Nobody dreamt of touching them. He hoped he had not said anything offensive to those who differed from his views. He had wished E

the

His only desire was to state the actual facts. From the bottom of his heart he could say, "God bless every Church engaged in trying to lift up Christ, and so to lift up the people." There was ample room for all of them. Godly Churchmen need have no fear as to the result of the disestablishment and disendowment of the National Church. It had been tried in Ireland since 1869. What was the testimony of a much respected Member of this House, the late Colonel Saunderson? Speaking at Dublin on 7th October, 1898, he said

"The Irish Church received, as we thought, a very sad blow twenty-eight years ago when it was disestablished and disendowed. Although I voted against that measure at the time, yet, if I could, I would now undo that vote; for I believe that the Irish Church is stronger and more spiritual to-day than it was

to avoid doing so, and if he had not suc- Members of Parliament who really felt ceeded he apologised for it. strongly and earnestly against such a Motion, and that there were many, equally loyal to truth as themselves, who were as convinced in their inmost consciences that Establishment was the mainstay of religion in our land, as they were convinced that it was its palsy and its curse. This knowledge made the task a hard one. He would have preferred that this Motion had been in a somewhat different form, as it was put on the Order Paper by the late Mr. Miall, viz., "That in the opinion of this House the establishment by law of the Church of England involves a violation of religiousequality, deprives that Church of the right of self-government, imposes on Parliament duties which it is incompetent to discharge, and is hurtful to the religious and political interests of the community, and therefore ought no longer to be maintained," for he based his support of the Resolution on the broad principle of justice and religious equality. He did not think it was the business of the State to take any cognizance of the religious opinions of its subjects. He claimed for every individual in the State the right to hold and to proclaim his faith, without interference by the civil power, and he further claimed that noman should, by reason of his religious. opinions, be either harmed or advantaged. by the State; while for religious communities he claimed, in the words of Maclaren, that as regards the State"All shall stand on one level, alike unhindered, unmeddled with, unpatronised, and left free to carry on their own proper work with their own proper power.'

ever before."

He hoped that his hon. friends opposite
would take notice of that remarkable state-
ment. So, doubtless, would it be with
the English Church in both England and
Wales. All that was good in her would
remain-yes, and be strengthened. The
churches would remain, the ministers'
houses would remain, every clergyman
who wished to do good would remain.
The tithes would remain to be used as
the people desired. Cut loose from
bondage to Courts and Parliaments,
relying alone on Heavenly influences,
and the love of its sons and daughters,
and purified in a second Reformation,
the Church as a spiritual body would be
strengthened. With the free management
of her own affairs the Church would
become a power for good such as it had
never been before. Then, in equal
brotherhood with all Christian Churches,
might they hope to see brought about
the fulfilment of the beautiful prayer so
often offered within these walls, for-
"The uniting and knitting together of the
hearts of all persons and estates within this
realm in true Christian love and charity one
towards another."

Hence, as a necessary step towards religious equality, he desired to see the special relation of control and support established between the State and one of the Churches in England ended. He wished at the outset to say he had no enmity to the Episcopal Church as a Church, nor any desire to injure the Church or to limit her powers for good.

Might God hasten that in his time. He On the contrary, his belief and his hopebegged to move.

*MR. GODDARD (Ipswich) said he rose to second the Resolution, and in doing so he felt that he had no light task, because while he had very strong convictions upon the importance of bring ing such a question as this before Parliament, he was aware that there were many Mr. Everett.

was that the Church, with its great learning, its wonderful organisation, its wealth and its zeal, would, if set free from the trammels of State control, become a greater power for good. He might fairly claim that the principle of political equality was the accepted principle of modern legislation, and that the days of privilege were doomed. The merest.