not find anything about immediate legislation in the Resolution. It says "That this House reiterates its opinion that the subject of Sunday trading requires the serious and earnest attention of His Majesty's Government, and urges them to legislate in accordance with the unanimous reports of the Committees of 1905 and 1906." The Resolution is less strong than the proposal moved by Lord Beauchamp himself in the Committee, but it remains one which goes upon the lines of that proposal; and I had hoped that it would have been accepted by His Majesty's Government, especially as the noble Lord the First Lord of the Admiralty told us. when this matter was last before the House that the Government felt it to be a subject that deserved their earnest consideration with a view to something being done. In view of the number of years that the subject has been under discussion, the deprecation of haste has an almost humorous aspect. an increase of general trading, and if that increase is allowed to advance as it is now advancing we shall find it impossible to grapple with it when another five or six years have passed. The evil is not a passing, an accidental, or a local one, and the feeling and action provoked in different parts of the world provide us with an object lesson. It is in the Colonies where the legislative power of the working classes is strongest that legislation has been most insisted upon. In New Zealand, where for good or for evil women as well as men have the franchise, and where it is certain that the particular needs of the working classes find expression most clearly and emphatically in the Legislature, there has for years past been a law prohibiting Sunday trading. And if we look at Canada we find a most remarkable state of things at this moment. Some two years ago I had the privilege of staying for a few days in Toronto, and one of the many subjects I there endeavoured to look into was this particular subject. I had the advantage of conferring with the municipal authorities-men whose knowledge as well as whose capacity impressed me to an extraordinary degree, and I was surprised to find how keenly they felt that it was impossible that even their stringent law on Sunday observance could be allowed to remain unstrengthened if the wishes of the working class population of their great city were to have proper effect given to them. I do not know whether your Lordships have all seen it, but I hold in my hand the Act passed by the Dominion Parliament last year, an Act which came into This question has been twenty years before each House of Parliament in turn, and we who have been moving in the matter to the best of our power are tired of the argument that we must not be hasty. The Select Committee of your Lordships' House and the Joint Committee of both Houses have really put the matter before us in all the fullness with which it is ever likely to be treated. It is surrounded with difficulties whichever way you look at it, but Governments exist for dealing with subjects surrounded with difficulties; and the fact that there are difficulties is no adequate argument for continuing to say it must be further considered, meaning that it is not to be dealt with at all. If ever the subject is to be dealt with legislatively, it ought to be dealt with soon. It is quite in-effect ten days ago. The terms of that disputable that the evil we are considering is largely on the increase, and if allowed to go on increasing it will very soon become impossible for us effectively to legislate. There is one point I would ask your Lordships to look into for yourselves in the evidence which was given before the last Committee on the subject. It is that the increase spoken of is not merely or mainly an increase of Sunday trading which may be called urgent or necessary, or of the kind required in order to meet special difficulties of special classes of the community. We are now face to face with legislation are such as would indeed startle the Houses of Parliament in England if it were suggested that we should pass a Bill in that form. The prohibition alike upon trading and work goes so far, and is so thorough in its character, that no one, I think, would suggest that we should attempt to introduce legislation of so drastic a sort in England; but the fact that that is being done in Canada, and that it has for long years been done in New Zealand, and in parts of Australia, is, I think, a very strong argument when we hear it said that this is a passing matter, and that the difficulties are local or temporary, or that the agitation is the work of a few faddists. I am not arguing that it is our duty to follow the example of the Colonies in matters of legislation. That is not my opinion at all. I am quoting the fact of their legislation as evidence of the strength of the feeling which exists, almost throughout the world, upon this question. If any one will study with care what has happened in France he will see that the difficulties that have arisen there have been experienced on precisely those points on which it had been anticipated that difficulty would arise if care was not taken in examining them beforehand. They are the very points we have had examined before Committees time after time, and they are difficulties against which we should be safeguarded by following the lines laid down by our Parliamentary Committees. The practical difficulty of dealing with this subject has always been most marked in three directions. There is the difficulty of the small trader; the difficulty of ascertaining what is best for the small consumer as apart from the trader; and the difficulty as regards the Jews. All these difficulties have now been thoroughly investigated. The protection necessary for the consumer has been conclusively determined, and that difficulty ought not to be brought up again. As to the Jews, every one desires to protect those who, while in many cases alien residents among us, may suffer on account of their conscientious convictions as to religious observances. But the Jews are congregated in vast numbers in only a few places, and it is only in those places that this difficulty could assume any formidable proportions. The Committee reported that regulations should be made to give relief to the areas mainly inhabited by Jews. We have, I think, something else to remember when we are dealing with that special difficulty. We rightly welcome with the least possible restriction immigrants who come to us, however poor or from whatever part of the world they come; but I do not think it is going too far to say that people who come to this country as immigrants, who come for their own good, and stay here because they find it to be to their advantage, and who are in very small numbers compared with the The Lord Archbishop of Canterbury. population of the country as a whole, ought to be prepared to conform to the general rules laid down in the country of their adoption. If a measure is shown to be for the good of the nation as a whole it can be no fatal objection to it that it will in three or four places, where Jews live, press hardly upon some of them. them. But to avoid even this pressure the Committee has advised special precautions. If this matter is to be taken in hand with any prospect of success it must be by the Government. It penetrates too far into the ordinary life of the people, and requires too much official knowledge, to allow of its being carried through by private persons. After all the Committees that have set on the subject I venture to think that we have a right to ask that something practical should now at las: be done. *LORD WEARDALE: My Lords, I am sure everybody will acquiesce in the view, which has been so admirably expressed by the most rev. Primate, that this is a question which imperatively demands the consideration of Parliament. I think, however, that what has fallen from my noble relative, on behalf of the Government, can be justified by a few observations, and I hope your Lordships will allow me, as a member of the Committee which sat on the subject last year, to lay some stress upon those points which seem to me to give ample justification for the attitude taken up by His Majesty's Government. The most rev. Primate has, I observe, with considerable dexterity, eliminated the question of urgency from the Motion. I think he was right in that, because he began his speech by saying it was a subject surrounded with difficulty. Surely, the most rev. Primate knows that a Government which has taken up a large number of subjects surrounded with difficulties can hardly, without ample consideration, take up yet another subject which they know must give rise to a great deal of controversy, and which is not likely to be settled, as some seem to think it may be, in one or two sittings of this House and the House of Commons. I venture to affirm that if the Bill proposed by Lord Avebury were to pass this House and to be sent to another place it would give rise there to almost interminable debate. I will not suggest the particular an important element into the whole quarter from which criticism or obstruc- question, and I appeal to your Lordships tion might proceed, but it must be obvious to support the view taken by my noble to every noble Lord that this is not a relative that it would be most unwise subject which could be dealt with quite to rush into legislation on the subject so easily as is imagined. during the present session, and that time must be given before action is taken. There are very great difficulties in dealing with this matter at all now. In the first place, there was considerable difference of opinion on the last Committee, and we were not all agreed as to the means which should be adopted to achieve the end in view. Some of us preferred a general enactment stipulating one day's rest in seven, and leaving to the local authority complete freedom to make arrangements in accordance with local requirements. That was a solution which commended itself to a large number-I believe almost half of the members of the Committee. Then there was the solution proposed by my noble friend. In this matter you have to consider a great variety of interests. You have to consider the case of the small trader; you have to consider the case of seaside ports, which have special requirements on Sunday; and you have also to consider the very difficult question of the Jews. I contend that all these things require very careful consideration by His Majesty's Government before they take this matter in hand. I wish to make a short reference to an interesting experience now taking place in the French Republic. While the Committee were sitting last year I obtained a copy of the Act which had been passed by the French Parliament. That Act was practically based upon this one principle, that the Legislature recognised that there should be one day's rest in seven for every worker in the community. That was the principle on which that Act rested. It left to the local authorities power to discriminate so as to avoid, as far as possible, inconvenience to certain trades and interests. But I would ask your Lordships to remember how infinitely greater was the problem of Sunday closing in France as compared with Sunday closing in England. Sunday in France was, until almost recent times, very much like any other day. Most of the shops were open, and people proceeded with their ordinary avocations without much difference. Then suddenly the French Legislature, who were forced to take that step by the demand of I suggest two other reasons why delay the workers, passed a general measure is advisable. In the first place, there enacting one day's rest in is the announcement made by the Govern- and almost in the twinkling of an eye ment that they propose to deal in the you see the Sabbath better observed present year with the whole question of in many parts of France than in Great licensing. We found, in considering this Britain. The exemptions do not in any matter of Sunday trading, that there was way detract from the admirable observan immense distinction as between Scot- ance of the Sabbath in France to-day. land and England, and there was a great That law has been carried into effect difference of opinion as to how the matter without very grave inconvenience, and should be dealt with. A large number of it at least proves that a law based representative men who came from on that principle can be just as effective Scotland, while agreeing with the object as a law based on what I think I may call of the noble Lord, did not approve of the the Sabbatarian principle, which, while particular Bill which he proposed, but we all respect it, is not, I think, the right preferred another Bill introduced into the principle on which legislation should be other House. While you have Sunday initiated. I hope your Lordships will closing of public-houses in Scotland, you pause before taking any further action have not Sunday closing in England, with regard to this subject. I say this and therefore the noble Lord's Bill would with all respect to Lord Avebury, whose have had to make such distinctions services in this matter I should be the between the two countries as would make very first to acknowledge, and I hope he it quite unworkable. If Sunday trading will agree with me that it is a matter is to be dealt with in the new licensing in which action taken without further Bill, as I hope it will be, that introduces consideration and without the prospect seven; of being able to carry a Bill in the present session of Parliament ought to be deplored by all those who wish to see some form of legislation carried on the subject. THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE : My Lords, with one observation that fell from the noble Lord who has just sat down I am able entirely to agree. I concur in what he said as to the ad miration which we all feel for the manner in which my noble friend Lord Avebury has treated this subject. We admire not only his perseverance, but the moderation and the considerate tone in which he has handled a difficult and intricate matter, and I do not think there can be much surprise in this House that he should feel that the time has come when his indefatigable efforts might well achieve some practical result. My noble friend comes to us to-night fortified by a very weighty backing of public opinion. No less than 343 tradesmen's associations support the principle he has laid down; no less than 198 working men's associations give him their support, and he is able to appeal to the Reports of no less than four Parliamentary Committees. We cannot, there fore, be surprised that he should desire to press His Majesty's Government not to lay this question on one side. If up to the present he has made but little progress in dealing with it, I do not think that can be charged to any indifference on our part or any reluctance to see what I believe to be a great evil redressed. But I have always been one of those who felt that the subject was one of the most complex and difficult with which Parliament could deal, and I have always believed that there was a risk that by precipitate and inconsiderate dealing with it we might set public opinion, which we should like to carry with us, against us; we have indeed object-lessons before us in the two cases which have been referred to this evening-the attempts which have been made in the French Republic and in Canada to deal with this question. In France I believe it is the case that the subject was dealt with under pressure somewhat hastily, and the result is that at this moment there is a widespread agitation against the Act now in force there. I shall be corrected if I am wrong, but I am almost sure that I saw the other day that, in Canada, the proLord Weardale. vince of Quebec had already contracted itself out of the Dominion Act to which the most rev. Primate referred. I have always felt that we could not proceed too cautiously, and it was for that reason that, I am afraid rather to my noble friend's disappointment when this matter came up in 1905, I ventured to dissuade the House from attempting to legislate at that time, and suggested not only that it was necessary for us to have the Report of the Committee which had dealt with my noble friend's Bill, but that we required further information and an investigation of the whole case not limited to the four corners of that Bill. I was very glad when a similar view was expressed in this House last year by my noble friend Lord Tweedmouth, and when, with the full concurrence of everybody, a Select Committee was appointed which was seized of the whole subject. We have now got the Report of that Committee, and I think my noble friend has a right to appeal to it as going very far indeed to justify the arguments he has more than once brought forward. That Committee may, of course, not have been unanimous upon the points of detail with which this question bristles, but upon the broad main lines it was unanimous. What I find in the Committee is an unanimous recommendation in favour of one day's rest in seven-a recommendation based not only upon religious and moral grounds, but supported by hygienic evidence of the most convincing description. That is the first principle. The second matter upon which they were unanimous is that the evil of Sunday trading is steadily increasing, and I think there can be no doubt as to that. My noble friend the Duke of Northumberland showed by a very convincing statement, that this practice of Sunday trading tends automatically to increase, because wherever it spreads it tends to spread further owing to the competition which is set up between the man who can trade on Sunday and the man who cannot. Then, my Lords, the Committee were unanimous as to the utter inadequacy of the present law. That is the third point. Fourthly and lastly, they were unanimous as to the possibility of doing something to mitigate this evil. My noble friend is able, therefore, very remarkable admission when we to appeal with great force to the Report remember the extraordinary readiness of the Committee; but it is, of course, with which His Majesty's Ministers are true that this is a case in which nothing in the habit of appropriating private can be done without the co-operation Members' Bills not included in their own of His Majesty's Government. It is programme when it suits them to do so. not for this House, it is not for the I am by no means convinced by that part Committee, to deal with the details of of the noble Earl's defence. administration. That is a matter which rev. can only be done adequately by the responsible Government of the day. Now, my Lords, we have had this evening a statement of the way in which the Government of the day regards this question, and I must say I share the disappointment expressed by the most Primate at the manner in which the noble Earl who spoke on behalf of the Government dealt with the case. He presented us with an official dilatory plea of which I am inclined to say that it was artistic but not convincing. He told us that legislation upon the lines of the Report of this Committee could not fail to create some hardship. Of course, we must all be aware of that. The difficulty is inherent. You cannot have any legislation which will not create some hardship; but surely the case is one in which we must have regard, not to the inconvenience that may be occasioned to a few people, but to the great moral and material gain which my noble friend says, I think with truth, would accrue to the whole population of the country by a change in the law. And, of course, the noble Earl's argument, if it be accepted as conclusive argument, is a really fatal to the idea of ever grappling with the difficulties of the question, because there never will be a moment when the representative of the Government of the day will not be able to get up and say, "There are cases of hardship and of inconvenience, and therefore let us put the question on one side." But the noble Earl had another argument-a familiar friend-the argument that His Majesty's Government could not touch this question because the legislative programme had already assumed such bulky dimensions. That is the second time within the last few days that we have had that argument given to us as a reason for not dealing with a question affecting the social welfare of the working classes, and we shall make a note of that admission. It is a The noble Earl is perhaps scarcely fair to my noble friend Lord Avebury when he suggests that his Motion is intended to force His Majesty's Government to legislate immediately upon this difficult subject. I admit I do not see how they could undertake to bring in a Bill this year, but we have a right to ask that we shall obtain some assurance from His Majesty's Ministers that this question is not going to be pigeon-holed and entirely used by the noble Earl who spoke for neglected. I noted the words which were the Government. He said there must be some delay for the present, and that the time was not quite ripe for legislation. We are ready to accept that, and I venture to suggest to my noble friend that by a slight alteration in the terms of his Resolution he would make it clear to the House that he is not calling for the immediate introduction of a Bill, but that he does desire that His Majesty's Government should promise that they will give their early consideration to the question in which he friend who leads the House in the absence is so deeply interested. Would my noble Majesty's Government could accept the of Lord Ripon consider whether His Motion of my noble friend, if it were made to run somewhat in this way "That this House reiterates its opinion that the subject of Sunday trading requires the serious and earnest attention of His Majesty's Government, and urges them to take the earliest available opportunity of legislating in accordance with the general principles affirmed by the Committees of 1905 and 1906." That slight change in the language makes it clear that we are ready to give His Majesty's Government a reasonable amount of time in which to examine the question; and it has this additional effect, that it would bind them, not to the exact detail of the Reports of the two Committees, but to the broad general conclusions which are so clearly set forth in the last paragraph of the Reportthe paragraph which I understand we owe to the appropriate drafting of the noble |