When those people get those lands it means we will have to own every foot we run over, and there is no grazing land in our vicinity less than $10 an

acre.

The only thing that has kept us in business the last two or three years is that 25 to 30 per cent of the range has been our own.

STATEMENT OF MR. GEORGE AUSTIN, OF SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH. Commissioner CULBERTSON. Where are your ranges?

Mr. AUSTIN. In Wyoming and Utah.

Commissioner CULBERTSON. How many sheep do you run?

Mr. AUSTIN. About 1,500 head of Cotswolds. They are not pure blood, but are very high grade. I run pure-blood rams with them.

Commissioner CULBERTSON. Do you breed sheep chiefly for lambs or wool? Mr. AUSTIN. I breed for the males and sell to the sheepmen here. We increase our herd very slowly. We never sell any young ewes-only the rams and old ewes. I have just sold 300.

Commissioner CULBERTSON. What is the tendency in this part as to breeds? Mr. AUSTIN. The tendency now is toward the tight wools-the Merinos. We almost had to give away our bucks this year. Three or four years ago the

demand was for loose wool.

Commissioner CULBERTSON. Regarding the shipping of sheep from one part of the country to another, do you think that the industry is destined to undergo a reorganization in the next decade?

Mr. AUSTIN. We will continue to ship. You can not summer on a winter ranch nor winter on a summer ranch. The last two years have demonstrated that no flock master is safe on his winter ranges without some feed for an emergency.

Commissioner CULBERTSON. Mr. McClure, what is the answer to this physical

situation?

Mr. MCCLURE. Ownership of winter and spring ranges. We will go on shipping between the ranges and feeding more and more on the winter range, until we ultimately have a deeded land proposition, with the exception of the deserts. Mr. PETRIE. Will the deserts be handled by the Federal Government?

Mr. MCCLURE. I was in Washington, and there is no sentiment there in favor of control of the public domain.

Mr. AUSTIN. It is à question of more feeding and of a breed of sheep that will produce more wool and mutton. We must feed more, because feed is getting scarcer on the range. A short time ago I moved a flock of Cotswolds out of a foot of snow and trailed them down to the winter range. They will be shipped to Boxelder County, Utah, and lambed and then shipped back.

Regarding the Government's policy of handling wool last season-1918-I want to say that our wool was shipped east and sold like many others. We got an itemized statement of every kind and grade, and the number of pounds in each and what it brought, which is something we have never had before. I do not think we should have gotten more, and I for one am well satisfied.

CONFERENCE AT BOISE, IDAHO, OCTOBER 27, 1919.

STATEMENT OF MR. HUGH SPROAT, OF BOISE, IDAHO.

Commissioner CULBERTSON. Where do you have your sheep, Mr. Sproat? Mr. SPROAT. Our summer range is at the headwaters of the Boise River, on the Boise Mountain Forest. We range within a hundred miles of Boise, practically, all the time.

We

Commissioner CULBERTSON. How many and what type of sheep do you have? Mr. SPROAT. We run about 14,000 ewes, mostly cross-bred, and generally Hampshire bucks. We are now moving into the foothills, about 15 or 20 miles south and east of Boise. Our winter quarters are on the Snake River, about 20 miles south of Nampa and about 125 miles from our summer range. raise considerable hay for spring and fall, in case of severe storms. Commissioner CULBERTSON. How do you get from one range to the other? Mr. SPROAT. Sometimes we ship our ewes and lambs about 40 miles, some in the spring from our winter lambing place; but most of the time it is trailing, which, on account of the sagebrush, is hard on the wool and likely to occasion severe lamb losses. Shipping is cheaper where service does not hold you on the cars more than three or four hours, and is less expensive than paying fines for trespassing.

We have difficulty in trailing, due to the water holes being taken up by homesteaders. It has just begun to affect us seriously. We have a 2-mile limit law in this State, forbidding us to graze within 2 miles of a homestead or inhabited dwelling. As homesteaders under the 640-acre act must maintain a habitation, this law is a serious handicap. Private ownership will work out in the long run.

Mr. McCLURE. They have the 2-mile limit law in Arizona, but have never enforced it.

Commissioner CULBERTSON. Do you have buildings and equipment for lambing? Mr. SPROAT. On the winter ranges we have sheds and corrals, mostly of lumper covered with canvas.

Commissioner CULBERTSON. Has control of the national forest been satisfac

tory?

Mr. SPROAT. It has been very satisfactory, although I might say that there is a conflict brewing between the cattle and the sheep industry. The general Impression is that sheep are hard on the ranges. My experience is that where sheep are ranged exclusively the range is improved, but where large numbers of cattle are turned in it rapidly goes to pieces.

Commissioner CULBERTSON. What is the best solution of this land question? Mr. SPROAT. Let the land go to private ownership and let this 640-acre homestead act go. These homesteaders are going to prove up and obtain some kind of a loan and then abandon these claims, the same as they did the 320-acre claims. These lands can then be leased. While present prices seem high, a lease gives exclusive right to the range.

Commissioner CULBERTSON. I had the pleasure on Friday and Saturday of seeing some actual conditions on the range. Dr. McClure and I went with Mr. A. J. Knowlin across the Snake River desert and up into the Little Lost River Valley to Mr. Knowlin's ranch. On Friday, we went up to his summer ranges near the Lemhi Forest and down the big Lost River Valley, returning to Pocatello. What percentage of your income is from wool and what percentage from mutton?

Mr. SPROAT. I estimate 75 per cent from mutton and 25 per cent from wool. The greater emphasis is placed on the lamb crop.

Commissioner CULBERTSON. You sell all the lambs produced from mutton

bucks?

Mr. SPROAT. Yes; but we generally breed one band of ewes to Cotswold bucks, and keep the ewe lambs to maintain our flocks. We buy some white-faced ewes and lambs in Oregon.

Commissioner CULBERTSON. How do prices of lambs in this country compare with those in England?

Mr. SPROAT. When our lambs are bringing about 18 to 20 cents a pound we are getting fairly close to British prices. I think lambs are selling as high as 60 and 64 shillings back in the old country-that is gross $15. Our gross in Chicago would be about $12 for the best lambs.

Commissioner CULBERTSON. How does the quality compare with those in Great Britain?

Mr. SPROAT. We have a much better lamb; that is, on the basis of actually taking them off of the range. I am speaking with reference to South Scotland. Commissioner CULBERTSON. How do you handle your sheep on the summer

range?

Mr. SPROAT. We generally run 10,000 ewes and 4,000 yearlings, in nine bands, with a herder for each, a camp tender for each two bands, and one foreman for all.

Commissioner CULBERTSON. What do you pay your men?

Mr. SPROAT. I pay the foreman $125 a month, the herders and camp tenders $90 to $100. In 1910 the foreman received $60 and herders and camp tenders $50. We furnish food and equipment and everything except beds. We estimate it costs each camp, men and dogs, from $35 to $40 a month per man. There are generally two dogs with each band, which cost quite a bit at present. Commissioner CULBERTSON. Of what does your equipment consist?

Mr. SPROAT. In summer we have an ordinary tepee tent and pack horses. In winter we use the standard type of camp wagon. The wagon, team, and harness is worth from $400 to $500, about 33 per cent higher than in 1910. Commissioner CULBERTSON. What is the camp fare?

Mr. SPROAT. They have flour for bread, canned corn and peas, and now they also want canned beans. They have canned milk for coffee, dried fruit, prunes, peaches, apricots, and raisins, also potatoes, rice, beans, sugar, and sirup. They have bacon, ham, and eggs, and they generally take the best lambs.

Commissioner CULBERTSON. Would you rather do business under the costs and prices of to-day than of 1910?

Mr. SPROAT. Under the cost prices of to-day, if labor was as efficient as formerly. Fifty per cent of the men are fairly efficient and the other 50 per cent vary from inefficient to totally useless. Some have been with me five or six years. Others stay a month. They leave a band and go to town and don't even notify you.

Commissioner CULBERTSON. Do you hand or machine shear?

Mr. SPROAT. Up to last year I did mostly machine shearing, but the machine shearers we had spoken for went on a strike and I had to take any crews I could get.

Mr. MCCLURE. In going to the summer range from the winter, and vice versa, are a good many arrested for trespassing, for coming within 2 miles of somebody's house?

Mr. SPROAT. I was arrested three times last year. We are generally sued for damages, but get a decision against them. If they can get easy money, they will arrest you every day. It is expensive, but you had better fight, so they will leave you alone.

Mr. MCCLURE. As a matter of fact, there are some people in this country that are making a living out of preying on the sheepmen, are there not?

Mr. SPROAT. Absolutely.

Mr. McCLURE. What percentage of homesteads have been abandoned?

Mr. SPROAT. Toward Sunnyside and the Black Creek country, 90 per cent. In the section between Blacks and Plymouth, for the first 25 or 30 miles, the same is true.

Mr. McCLURE. How did they finance these homesteads?

Mr. SPROAT. They do not need any money. A man takes it up and, if his neighbor has left, frequently helps himself to the house. I do not mean that there are no bona fide homesteads, but most of them prove up expecting to sell sooner or later. They borrow money on these homesteads from eastern loan companies or Government farm loans.

Mr. GOODING. Is not the term "sold out" usually employed when they get a loan?

Mr. SPROAT. Yes; and whoever loaned the money is holding the sack. Commissioner CULBERTSON. Mr. Butterfield, did the farm-loan bank loan money on these homesteads?

Mr. BUTTERFIELD. They have in the Weiser country. The farm loans in this country have generally been made on the better ranches.

Mr. MCCLURE. The original Tariff Board's report on wool growing emphasized the fact that wool growers in this country could better their condition by devoting more attention to mutton breeds. Our association believes that you can not use entirely mutton breeds on the range. Do you have to have Merino blood in your ewes?

Mr. SPROAT. Absolutely. Whenever we get beyond a half-blood Merino the sheep are subject to great mortality and are extremely hard to handle.

Mr. MCCLURE. In order to have a sufficient supply of cross-bred ewes available it is necessary to maintain somewhere in the country a supply of pure-bred Merinos, Lincolns, and Cotswolds.

Mr. SPROAT. Yes. This could perhaps be overcome by using Rambouillet bucks on these half-bred ewes, getting the come-back lamb.

Mr. CHATTIN. Some fellows are raising Panamas or Corriedales, and some are raising half-blood ewes to sell to the mutton-lamb sellers and are getting these bucks and breeding them to the half-blood ewes, which still gives them a halfblood lamb.

Commissioner CULBERTSON. Mr. Sproat, in what month do you lamb?
Mr. SPROAT. February and April.

Commissioner CULBERTSON. When and where do you market your lambs? Mr. SPROAT. We ship to Omaha and Chicago, some in June, but more in July and August.

Commissioner CULBERTSON. How do you market your wool? Mr. SPROAT. This year I sent one car to the National Wool Chicago, and sold two cars at home to the American Woolen Co. large wool houses in Boston have buyers through this section. appearance of competition.

Warehouse in

They and the There is some

Commissioner CULBERTSON. How much alfalfa do you feed each winter?
Mr. SPROAT. Two hundred tons of hay and 25,000 pounds of grain to 1,000

ewes.

Mr. MCCLURE. Is your investment in sheep greater than in land and equipment?

Mr. SPROAT. Land and equipment is from $8 to $10 per sheep.

STATEMENT OF MR. F. B. GOODING, OF GOODING, IDAHO.

Mr. GOODING. Idaho has become a fat-lamb producing State. Because of the encroachments of homesteaders, there is no longer much open range, and the feeding season is longer than in 1910. The cost of handling is fully 120 and possibly 150 per cent more.

Commissioner CULBERTSON. What percentage of your income is from lambs, and what percentage from wool?

Mr. GOODING. About 70 per cent for fat lambs and 30 per cent for wool. Those percentages are about the same as in 1910. Idaho was developing as a lamb country very rapidly at that time.

Mr. SPROAT. Were you not the first to ship a carload of mutton lambs from Idaho to market?

Mr. GOODING. Gooding Bros. were the first. We were not running together, but the three of us shipped 22 cars of lambs to Chicago in 1896. The fat-lamb industry developed in the Wood River section of the country, and around 2.000 carloads of lambs are shipped out per year.

Commissioner CULBERTSON. Is this industry on a permanent basis?

Mr. GOODING. It is in great danger of being destroyed by the homestead law and overgrazing outside of the forest reserves. The winter season calls for five

months of feeding on the ranch; then comes the spring season, with about 60 days on the open range. Our summer range season of about 90 days is spent in the national forests, followed by three months on the fall range. The spring range is very largely used for fall, but in most parts of the State it is being destroyed by grazing and homesteading. You can not run sheep in large numbers on a ranch; you must have a spring, summer, and a fall range, and if you destroy any of these you destroy the industry. Enlarged homesteading is having this effect. Settlers are going on these large homesteads or are buying them up, so that few sheepmen will be able to remain in business except in localities where there is enough grass so they can afford to own the land and pay the taxes and the interest on the investment. In this part of the State the country consists of dry and barren lava, and the grasses are not strong. I can not afford to own it and pay taxes. It takes more land here than where there is more rainfall and less sagebrush.

Commissioner CULBERTSON. What is your solution of the situation?

Mr. GOODING. The extension of the forest-reserve administration over these lands. Some men will probably be more successful in getting control of a large part of the country, and they are doing that. It is likely that all of us would do the same thing if we had the opportunity.

Mr. SPROAT. Conditions vary. In the western part of the State there is practically no vacant land. As you come toward this country there is considerable homesteading and vacant land. In the lava formation in Gov. Gooding's country there are still large bodies of unappropriated land.

Mr. GOODING. In Idaho the ground is entirely too rough to fence. It is solid lava in some places and in other parts the snowfall is so great that it would break a wire fence. The cost of upkeep would be too great.

Commissioner CULBERTSON. Will not the high cost of labor force the industry to some system of fencing?

Mr. GOODING. NO. You can not fence up your range. That is an impossibility in any part of Idaho. In some of our mountain ranges the snowfall is 8 and 10 feet deep. A 4-foot snow is common-low, if anything—in a normal winter on our summer ranges in the forest, so that the idea of fencing is out of the question.

Mr. MCCLURE. The difficulty of handling sheep during storms and blizzards would make pastures impossible.

Mr. GOODING. Fencing can not be thought of in Idaho with any price that might be paid for wool or mutton. Losses from coyotes, bob cats, and lynx are very large, and a herder is required all the time. There are enough bells on the sheep so that if they are disturbed at night the herder gets up at once. If you are going to fence, you must fence all of your ranges. You can not organize your forces and herd only part of the time. My sheep range at least 100 miles